I absolutely want to profit from people who look at my Kymar + Kimi + Ukko + Gaius team, and don't recognize that all four are wearing Stoneskin and using Lightning Cage, yes.

Ukko and Gaius in Stoneskin is a no-brainer. Those two already warrant bringing in a stripper and a cleanser, although I don't know how y'all do it up in higher arena. With my limited champs and builds, I'm definitely bringing in Mithrala and Ukko. Haven't built Riho yet, I assume she might be useful, but don't know all the nuances yet. 

My question to you: whom would you bring against a team of Ukko and Gaius (who are almost always in Stoneskin) that you wouldn't if you knew Kymar and Kimi also wear Stoneskin? This is a genuine question, I want to know how different the thought process is at y'all's level of arena. 

For starters - no, Ukko is not almost always in Stoneskin. I daresay I'd argue Ukko is almost *never* in Stoneskin. Gaius, sure, but not Ukko.

Secondly - Kymar into Kimi is very rarely ever some stupidly high speed team. Usually the Kimi is going to open, but she's probably closer to around 300 speed - mine is like 310 I think. So it's typically very easy to win the speed race. All you need is to boost into a CC, and then you have all the time in the world to figure out how you want to win. Don't have a great nuke setup? Bring Mithrala or Brogni to deal with the bombs. Or, bring Gaius yourself, to get around the Stoneskin. There are plenty of options.

But, with Kymar and Kimi in their own Stoneskin + Lightning cage, your options become significantly more limited. If you bring a buff stripper team, you have a 75% chance of flat-out failing on the removal - more if the Lightning Cage is higher in level. So, most people will bring some sort of team involving people like Mithrala - but, those teams fail pretty hard against 1000+ ACC that I'm running with Kimi's buff.

Showing the set the defender uses is not a good option. I would prefer removing stoneskin from the game entirely. I have a team around stoneskin Cardinal myself, as long as this set exists, I will use it. But it's the biggest sh*t actually existing in this game.

Arena matches with 2 stoneskin teams, both trying to get their champs as slow as possible, so the stoneskin effect expires at the opponent team first, is as interesting as track cycling with it's standstill. Does anybody watch (or like 😽) track cycling? A sport/game where you try your best to be slower than your opponent is just boring.

I mean, this is basically the UDK complaints, but I'm trying to be nice about it. 😭

I repeat, but will be clearer. This is a bad team for Stoneskin/Immunity meta.

I asked for your roster. Building a "speed nuke" team in all stoneskin is a viable strat, and one I use myself. This is the same strat as when you'd build a full fake speed nuke team in Immunity/Untouchable and let Heges bounce off you when it was ther all Hege meta. If you can't beat 3 teams in Stoneskin, that's on you, and you are in the tier you are supposed to be. Or perhaps higher than you should be.

I hope you understand I am looking to help you. However, I do very much see your complaints here at the same level, or worse, than the UDK complaints. I feel like you should know better buddy. People are building their teams in full stoneskin to make you lose, and it's working, and instead of just adjusting to that, you're on here telling us the game needs to be changed. That's literally the same as the UDK posts.

Hey now!! I can see UDK, I can go into his kit and read exactly what he does. I can't see stoneskin until the fight begins. 

UDK is a champ that can be countered with certain gear, Stoneskin is gear that can be countered with certain champions....they are not the same lol

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this doesn't really make sense to me. 

If you know or think all of those champs are in Stone Skin, why does that need to be shown?

If you are wrong about champions being in Stone Skin, why should you be bailed out by giving gearing information prior to the fight? not to mention that you can't just start pick & choosing what sets get shown/declared before a fight. you'd likely have to have it all or nothing and that's just gross.

Stoneskin is gear that can be countered with gear. Stoneskin is gear that can be countered with champs. I have to assume you'd have been complaining in the All Immunity meta too, about how you couldn't debuff immunity teams and they would stomp you after your Maulie failed to provoke. That was before your time though.

Complaining that the game needs to change to accomodate that you can't beat particular champs when you refuse to change your strategy is 100% the same as complaining that you can't beat particular gear when you refuse to change your strategy.

I use the same team no matter what in classic. All the way into Plat. How do I not need to ever make subsitutions? Cause I try to see what arena the arena meta is, and I gear accordingly.

Ok, I'll go ahead and weigh in here, I've managed to score some rather decent stoneskine pieces.  But I actually have no one eqyipped with it, even the champs I use regularly and i expect to wear it when I engage them. Still, it doesn't cause me to shy away from those fights.

stoneskin is no different from any other meta.

I'm not saying it's unbeatable, I'm not even saying it's challenging where I am sitting. I can and do beat them daily. Not with this team, I rarely use it in Classic Arena.

I have nothing against the buff. At the top? Sure, it's the meta. It makes a good team better, and I'm all for that. But using it on trash teams? Its only merit is that it's invisible.....that's not meta, that's cheap tricks. 

So yeah, sure. I'll gear up Gnishak, I'll regear Kymar, Madame etc. But even when I beat them on regular basis, the garbage stoneskin teams will get no respect from me. I'll still see them as dirty garbage teams, except now they'll have a rat rummaging through it. 

The only constant is change, buddy. You get busy regearing, or you get busy falling. Untouchable meta coming soon.

If I was chasing the ranks, I'd be all over that. I'm not interested in that, not yet. 

I'm just learning the game, I'm enjoying solving the puzzle, looking at the champs and learning how to beat them. That's why I am where I am, that's why I'm not pushing to be higher. Every now and then, I'll take a crack at the higher teams, and if I lose, it's all good. 

So when meta teams use meta gear, by all means, y'all have your own beef going on, you have to bring your A-game. But when a little garbage team that knows full well they're not crackin into Gold tag with that defense wants to get cheap points off Stoneskin....come on. That's not meta. 

Sometimes, I'd go against the same team for 4-5 times in a row, lose every one of them despite switching comps....and I have fun doing it. That's a challenge. But if I know how to beat you in the next battle before this battle even starts? That's not meta lol

P.S. What gear counters Stoneskin? I don't think I've ever come across that. 

Do you mention garbage teams, cheap tricks?  Hor is that different from Paragon complaints?  If it works? If it's what makes your garbage successful?  How is it garbage?

I presume most are trying to farm medals or complete missions.  How do you know they're not presenting the best champs they have in the best gear available to them?  

are you saying if that's the best they have (kicking your butt mind you) they shouldn't be allowed to use it?  They should put off succes until they have a team worthy of your admiration?  They should not try to use what they have, until they have something up to your standards?  Think about that the next time you get your butt kicked! 

Just a few examples. I'm not bitter about legit teams using Stoneskin, nor do I struggle with them particularly hard.

P.S. Yes, Krama, you told me so...I still maintain that I see a lot of Stoneskin Ukkos lol

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For one, we know Paraon places unkillable on himself, it's right there in his kit, you know what it's going to be about going in. And when it's solo Paragon, you already know it's a Stoneskin Paragon. When a Speed Team does it, it's just a trap. Yay, you got me, now I come back and bend you over. Congrats, you made a Stoneskin team that looks like a speed team. Comes with a coupon for one free W. 

Come on, best they have available to them? If the best they got is a 150K arena team, what are the chances they are even farming Hydra, let alone having Stoneskin being the best gear available to them. My best gear is Perception, you know why? Because it's a lot easier to get. But hey, if somebody out there running a speed team and the best gear they could muster is somehow Stoneskin on all 4 champs, I owe you an apology. 

I lost to legit speed teams who were 75K below mine, it's the nature of the beast, you just eat it. Their TM Booster was faster than mine, the rest is self explanatory, good game. You won't hear me complain about it. I've lost to an Elhain team not too long ago.....no tricks, just a very good Elhain, I guess. So no, I'm not saying don't do the best you can with what you got. I'm just saying Stoneskin set on a speed team is like an evening dress on a dude - even if he says it's the only clothes he could find, I don't know if I believe him. 

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I feel like there is a fundamental disconnect going on here. You're viewing teams that use Stoneskin and win as "they don't deserve to win". Like, "their team is worse than mine, and the only reason they won was because they were using Stoneskin".

Why are you not thinking "they won because they overcame their deficiences by the fact they used Stoneskin to make up the difference"?

If those teams annoy you so much, you can always punish them by giving them 10 wins in a row. They'll go up in rating and wont be able to farm wins themselves LOL

Push them right into plat. That will teach them! LMAO

I assume you are familiar with the concept of "one trick pony". I'm not ragging on teams that use Stoneskin and win, I have a problem when a Stoneskin team winning solely because of Stoneskin. 

I respect a team that I go against and legitimately lose to, Stoneskin or not. I will lose to the same team several times, and I keep playing them just to figure it out, and I got no problem giving them the Ws. And when I finally win, I don't feel like my team is better. I just found the right variables to solve the puzzle, through trial and error, and I learned in the process. I lost and I learned.

But if your team is only good for one surprise....a gimmick...a "fool me once", so to speak.... then no, you didn't overcome the deficiencies...you simply concealed them for one encounter. And I will genuinely forfeit the rest of the tag battles in the series just so I can come back and blow your team up, preferably 3-0. It's not about wins and losses to me, I'm not struggling to stay where I am and I'm not pushing any further, so it's not some "I needed that W and got beat" kind of frustration.

I get it if you think the ends justify the means. "If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid", and I'm sure both of our last two Presidents would agree. But I grew up with a different phrase - "consistency is a sign of quality". That's why I make a clear distincion between a team that beats me 5 times out of 5 and a team that only beats me the first time.