This topic is closed

A change of tack?

74 Replies
Drogar61
29 December, 2016, 11:47 AM UTC

Warrior said:


So i hope like after seeing what they are in process of doing like me, all players will understand that after all they are also humans and they also have limitations.

I rally don't want to continue, but that problem is well known and have so simple, proven, solution. Hire more devs.

If you have any addition on this I promise I will be quiet, but really please read your text before you post it.
UTC +0:00
djmoody
29 December, 2016, 12:27 PM UTC

Warrior said:


Drogar61 said:


Warrior said:


It is at time hard to find the exact issue with millions of line of codes and trillions of line of logs. 

How do you know this?

Btw, if this is a truth then Plarium developers are simple amateurs. But I think that they aren't, so please answer the question.
This is my trade for many years.. and i am an expert in this field with more than 12 years.. even a kid that joins the company i work in knows this.

Warrior - you come across as a hopeless fan boy applying no knowledge, experience, logic or rationale to your posts.

Worse still you then try and boost your baseless threads with pointless comments such as "I am an expert and i am an expert in this field with more than 12 years.. even a kid that joins the company i work in knows this". That works with people that have only zero knowledge, for those of us with a little bit of brains we'll assess the level of "expertise" you have from the quality of your posts (so far extremely weak).

Virtually all developers have the simplest forms of bot detection in place i.e. repetitive clicks on the same points on the screen, with the same time delay. Plarium don't even have this in place. e.g it's easy to see to identify bot driven spam attacks when castles send spam 1 troop attacks that have exactly the same time interval between attacks.

Far from issues of millions of lines of code (like this incredibly simple and content-less games has millions of lines of code btw), the issue is more one of server resource and storage for logs (i.e. cost).

Defending Plarium is pointless. They just don't care. They don't invest any development time or money in this range of games outside of adding new shop or sapphire draining updates.


Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
UTC +0:00
Warrior
29 December, 2016, 1:16 PM UTC

djmoody said:


Warrior said:


Drogar61 said:


Warrior said:


It is at time hard to find the exact issue with millions of line of codes and trillions of line of logs. 

How do you know this?

Btw, if this is a truth then Plarium developers are simple amateurs. But I think that they aren't, so please answer the question.
This is my trade for many years.. and i am an expert in this field with more than 12 years.. even a kid that joins the company i work in knows this.

Warrior - you come across as a hopeless fan boy applying no knowledge, experience, logic or rationale to your posts.

Worse still you then try and boost your baseless threads with pointless comments such as "I am an expert and i am an expert in this field with more than 12 years.. even a kid that joins the company i work in knows this". That works with people that have only zero knowledge, for those of us with a little bit of brains we'll assess the level of "expertise" you have from the quality of your posts (so far extremely weak).

Virtually all developers have the simplest forms of bot detection in place i.e. repetitive clicks on the same points on the screen, with the same time delay. Plarium don't even have this in place. e.g it's easy to see to identify bot driven spam attacks when castles send spam 1 troop attacks that have exactly the same time interval between attacks.

Far from issues of millions of lines of code (like this incredibly simple and content-less games has millions of lines of code btw), the issue is more one of server resource and storage for logs (i.e. cost).

Defending Plarium is pointless. They just don't care. They don't invest any development time or money in this range of games outside of adding new shop or sapphire draining updates.


DJ you have even spoken to me on TS.. i say it on your face as i know it and i dont hide or try to defend. If i know they are trying to fix it i will tell you they are if not i will not even bother to answer the posts till i know enough. if people want to understand "How difficult can it be?" i will have to answer to make them understand that Coding is not like Magic, things take time and will take time. they tried to fix it in the past they could not but atleast they tried. Unlike players who just want to say and keep shouting problem that have been acknowledged as a problem with fix in progress.


It is simple, if you have a leak in the pipe you dont just put a sticker or keep a bucket under it to get the water from spreading you fix it. That is what they are trying to do and all people want ,and you can read the post from top to bottom, is to get the bots remove that are currently there.


Since i respect you a lot as a player, I will leave the verdict for you to decide which is a better fix out of the two. 
Please Like the Post if you agree or if it helps
UTC +6:00
nobody
29 December, 2016, 8:07 PM UTC

Warrior said:


Rosconz, There were multiple attempt to fix this but as i said fixing a Game code is not like Magic, waving a wand in the air does not fix the issue. 


It is at time hard to find the exact issue with millions of line of codes and trillions of line of logs. All moderators and CMs have been saying this all along that the Devs are working on the fix. It does not mean that you complain today and wake up the next day to find every thing working like Magic.

Some fixes are complex and some issues are complex they need time to find and fix.The only problem that is see is CMs and Moderators were being nice to the players but just saying that the fix is being worked on and not giving them straight hard facts about the scenario of Game Development. Plarium Devs does not want say we fixed the issue to find it crops up the next day. This has happened in the past and we learn lessons from our mistakes.


I like stating thing in the most upfront way possible, people may not like me for it but that is they truth my friend. But just keeping on harping about the issue that has been way long acknowledged does not take the discussion anywhere just will be running in loops where you will say there is an issue and i will say we know that and we are trying to fix it.

As for my being a moderator now, buddy i have been playing this game much before you even had heard about the game and have been active on the forum reading all the post for a much longer time that you did.

with the ability to turn a castle into a vacant lot, just turn bots into vacant lots.  lets face it,  plarium will never know how to stop the creation of bots. the "root cause". but they are created with the new players, so if the old bots are turned into vacant lots and the new bots are done the same quickly after discovery, then bots can be systematically removed.

i can give the coord to corner bots castles to 4 lines near me.  and someone can follow those lines in 2 directions all the way to the ends just like i can, and just vacant lot the whole bunch.  i don't believe that the codes and the logs would be an issue.

by spreading out the bot castles it does nothing but make it harder for players and easier for the bots.  and by closing a thread which i could put the coords of those 4 corner bots, eliminates the ability to rid the game of 10 actual lines of bots.

i use bot castles for resources, however i am to the point that i really don't care anymore, get rid of them all and start where i am so that i never need more than 10 minutes in the game.  plus it would be fun to see the "inactive castle" advocates squirm when it becomes inefficient to even try to resource raid, heck lets raise the amount of raids each person can send out each day and the cap limit as well.

i don't think the code has to do with eliminating current castles.  i think it can be done.  but maybe i am naive.
UTC +0:00
Warrior
29 December, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

Agree but it is as this. i will give the same example i gave above.. if a pipe has a leak you fix the pipe to avoid the spread the water on the floor. It might take some time to fix the pipe, you might not be able to reach to see where exactly the hole is but that does not make us put a bucket under it and keep throwing the water out when the bucket gets full. 


i agree that the current bots can be removed but what the point if they keep coming back and Devs keep removing them. The same time can be spent to fix other issues and get other better feature that we have been asking for. In the long run, the effort to keep removing them out weighs the effort spend in removing them for the life time.

Let us know if you disagree that the fix should not be permanent and should be just a cleanup of the existing ones.

in my personal opinion, fixing the pipe is better than keeping a bucket under it.
Please Like the Post if you agree or if it helps
UTC +6:00
nobody
29 December, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

Warrior said:


Read the very fist post i already said the fix is in progress.

so you are saying that they have found the "root cause" and are now actively writing code that will completely stop the creation of bots?

6 months ago i had posts being deleted and asterisked out.  the content had to do with the slow, yet emanate death of flash.  alyona stated that plarium was keeping apprised "watching" the situation, that plarium had been aware of the situation for some time and was actively keeping an eye on it and doing there due diligence.  i was deleted for saying that i did not believe that they were keeping up with it and doing there due diligence.

now the new cm states that plarium is looking for an answer.  that states that they do not have one.  and with at least 6 months of due diligence, more than that if you believe that they new of the issue before we were deleted for telling them.  after at least 6 to 9 months of due diligence, the new cm's answer is less reassuring than the old cm's answer.

i still don't believe in plarium's motivation or competency pertaining to flash.  but if the bot problem is as tough as you say with the lines of code and logins.  i don't believe  the root cause will be found.

but are you saying "the root cause has been found" and is it one cause for all bots?
UTC +0:00
Warrior
29 December, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC
I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.
Please Like the Post if you agree or if it helps
UTC +6:00
nobody
29 December, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

Warrior said:


I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.

the problem is that that is your faith in plarium.  i have none.  until true information is given by plarium it is your faith vs. mine.

i don't believe their priority and vision is truly given to improving this game.  it is going to mobile games and mtx. i doubt 1 % of effort is going towards flash or the removal of bots, neither do i believe that they are creating growth paths that will increase the resource field if bots are ever removed.

it is a matter of faith.  yours vs. the player base.

the topic is that the thread was locked.  the simple answer is  whether your faith or ours is proven correct, the message is we "plarium" don't want your "the player" help with this issue.
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Gadheras
29 December, 2016, 8:58 PM UTC

johanrayne said:


Warrior said:


I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.

the problem is that that is your faith in plarium.  i have none.  until true information is given by plarium it is your faith vs. mine.

i don't believe their priority and vision is truly given to improving this game.  it is going to mobile games and mtx. i doubt 1 % of effort is going towards flash or the removal of bots, neither do i believe that they are creating growth paths that will increase the resource field if bots are ever removed.

it is a matter of faith.  yours vs. the player base.

the topic is that the thread was locked.  the simple answer is  whether your faith or ours is proven correct, the message is we don't want your help with this issue.

I haven't seen a single action been taking against any bots I seen in the game, ever since I started play. The same bots then, is still there around my castle today. That should be proof good enough, nothing is being done. 


"How many Plarium devs does it take to change a light bulb? None, because they refuse it need to be changed"



UTC +2:00
nobody
29 December, 2016, 9:06 PM UTC

Gadheras said:


johanrayne said:


Warrior said:


I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.

the problem is that that is your faith in plarium.  i have none.  until true information is given by plarium it is your faith vs. mine.

i don't believe their priority and vision is truly given to improving this game.  it is going to mobile games and mtx. i doubt 1 % of effort is going towards flash or the removal of bots, neither do i believe that they are creating growth paths that will increase the resource field if bots are ever removed.

it is a matter of faith.  yours vs. the player base.

the topic is that the thread was locked.  the simple answer is  whether your faith or ours is proven correct, the message is we don't want your help with this issue.

I haven't seen a single action been taking against any bots I seen in the game, ever since I started play. The same bots then, is still there around my castle today. That should be proof good enough, nothing is being done. 


"How many Plarium devs does it take to change a light bulb? None, because they refuse it need to be changed"



yes but the topic with warrior is efficiency of effort.  that the reason for not turning bots into vacant lots now is that plarium is working on a permanent cure that will be a more efficient use of time, effort, focus, energy and money.

this is his belief, mine is that it is a smokescreen to not be bothered with the issue.

neither one of us is defending that bots are being dealt with now.

and you and i already know each others views on bots, lets not go there again.



anyhow,

cheers
UTC +0:00
Gadheras
29 December, 2016, 9:12 PM UTC

johanrayne said:


Gadheras said:


johanrayne said:


Warrior said:


I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.

the problem is that that is your faith in plarium.  i have none.  until true information is given by plarium it is your faith vs. mine.

i don't believe their priority and vision is truly given to improving this game.  it is going to mobile games and mtx. i doubt 1 % of effort is going towards flash or the removal of bots, neither do i believe that they are creating growth paths that will increase the resource field if bots are ever removed.

it is a matter of faith.  yours vs. the player base.

the topic is that the thread was locked.  the simple answer is  whether your faith or ours is proven correct, the message is we don't want your help with this issue.

I haven't seen a single action been taking against any bots I seen in the game, ever since I started play. The same bots then, is still there around my castle today. That should be proof good enough, nothing is being done. 


"How many Plarium devs does it take to change a light bulb? None, because they refuse it need to be changed"



yes but the topic with warrior is efficiency of effort.  that the reason for not turning bots into vacant lots now is that plarium is working on a permanent cure that will be a more efficient use of time, effort, focus, energy and money.

this is his belief, mine is that it is a smokescreen to not be bothered with the issue.

neither one of us is defending that bots are being dealt with now.

and you and i already know each others views on bots, lets not go there again.



anyhow,

cheers

Well I tried to push the out of sync issue today in the online chat. I even gave a heads up about the question with reference days in advance, and ended up getting called disrespectful in the end. Oh yeah, the question of course not answered. I'm quite sure the new thread I made about it get locked just as all the other threads related to the issue have been.

Talk to the hand, nothing to see, move along....  how can we even have fate in a company like that.




UTC +2:00
BiohazarD
Moderator
29 December, 2016, 9:43 PM UTC
johanrayne said:

Warrior said:


Read the very fist post i already said the fix is in progress.

so you are saying that they have found the "root cause" and are now actively writing code that will completely stop the creation of bots?

6 months ago i had posts being deleted and asterisked out.  the content had to do with the slow, yet emanate death of flash.  alyona stated that plarium was keeping apprised "watching" the situation, that plarium had been aware of the situation for some time and was actively keeping an eye on it and doing there due diligence.  i was deleted for saying that i did not believe that they were keeping up with it and doing there due diligence.

now the new cm states that plarium is looking for an answer.  that states that they do not have one.  and with at least 6 months of due diligence, more than that if you believe that they new of the issue before we were deleted for telling them.  after at least 6 to 9 months of due diligence, the new cm's answer is less reassuring than the old cm's answer.

i still don't believe in plarium's motivation or competency pertaining to flash.  but if the bot problem is as tough as you say with the lines of code and logins.  i don't believe  the root cause will be found.

but are you saying "the root cause has been found" and is it one cause for all bots?
There is no "root cause" of the bot problem.  People will always try to create bots if they think they can benefit from it.  There will always be ways to interface with the game, even if it's just pixel capture and click simulation. The key is detecting the bots and deleting them using some automated process, instead of relying on users to report bots a few at a time.  This is what Plarium (is/should be) working on. 
UTC +0:00
Warrior
29 December, 2016, 10:18 PM UTC
Agree with Bio. Also the entry point is also important to close.
Please Like the Post if you agree or if it helps
UTC +6:00
IronApex Turok
29 December, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

so my thread was closed because plarium already knows where all the bots are, but the devs havent done anything because the bots are hard to find in all the code?





you contradict yourself. 


I request you to Re-read you missed the point. - Warrior
UTC +0:00
roadstar Pitbull
29 December, 2016, 10:24 PM UTC

Warrior said:


I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.

I really hate to step in,,,,,,, BUT...

We have all heard how secretive and confidential the development  and coding side is. How is it that a new mod can suddenly have all this knowledge and insight????

And btw,,, this "fix" has been in process for how long??? Maybe a few days, not the years of knowledge of the issue.
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zapelo
30 December, 2016, 1:03 AM UTC

Warrior said:


Drogar61 said:


Warrior said:


Drogar61 said:


Warrior said:


It is at time hard to find the exact issue with millions of line of codes and trillions of line of logs. 

How do you know this?

Btw, if this is a truth then Plarium developers are simple amateurs. But I think that they aren't, so please answer the question.
This is my trade for many years.. and i am an expert in this field with more than 12 years.. even a kid that joins the company i work in knows this.

If millions and trillions which must be checked as you said is truth, then all of that is simple garbage. And that is the truth for professionals with 2-3 years of experiences.

But, I  pleased you to answer on much more simple question: How do you know this?

Wow i really need to give a Coding 101 soon. There are categories of issues this is not just a game bug but another type of issue (i am not willing to use the term since simple minded people will take it other wise). The fix is not just in the game code but it is in the base underlying code that runs on the infrastructure as well as other monitoring that needs to be run to detect it. I have solved similar issues in the past not for Plarium but for other types of development (you understand that i cannot divulge names since i would be bide by the code of ethics).


For me it was a piece of cake to understand the issue(not the root cause since i dont have the access to what the Devs have). 


As for the millions and trillions number that i used it is a ballpark estimated figure based on my experience. Also you might want to read what i said regarding the figures carefully if you do understand IT terms. A simple code in Java for a POS system even generates a log of 1GB in a day for a single type of transaction by multiple users. if you do understand IT terms you can do the maths on the size of the log and the amount of data in it.

I think you should stop embarrassing yourself by trying to lecture people.


1. This game is not a P.O.S. system.

2. Coding language does not have anything to do with the application logs. "This gives me the first doubt in your knowledge and experience"

3. The other clue to you poor judgement is that you call a P.O.S. system simple.

4. Explanation for point 3.. Logs should be just text right? So that is a bit over 1,000,000,000 characters. Now in the logs of a P.O.S. system only ids, time stamps and amounts should be saved. So one log record should be quite small say 50 characters (compressed) that gives us 20,000,000 records. "Simple ... yeah right"

5. Calling other people "simple minded" just shows me that in the 12+ years you have not learned to respect people that are not "coders" but are "users". Also you probably think that you are superior to them. That tells me a lot about your persona.

6. If this "game" needs millions of lines of code in (AS = front end part of the game) (Sever side seems to be done in .net) then everyone at plarium should be fired.

7. Someone "DJMOODY" already gave an example how to prevent people using macro scripts (read other posts) honestly this should be the only way they can deal with multiple accounts. If they are able to do it in other ways then all the server side code should be redone cause there is something horribly wrong.

8. Some solutions do not need inventing a whole new science. You just have to look at other solutions and possibly adjust them to your needs. That of course can be done if there is a will to do it.


Shall i continue?


Get this from someone that has been doing this (development) for 25 years now.


UTC +0:00
Warrior
30 December, 2016, 5:03 AM UTC

Point taken Zap, You and me both agree the solution should be permanent not a temporary fix.


That was the whole point of discussion. The solution should be permanent and the solution should come soon, the date needs to be provided (which is the only thing i see is the biggest problem here).


Pleasure talking to an expert int he field, you would also acknowledge if the cant find a permanent fix a workaround should be put but it should also not increase the load on the resources. So yup i agree with all of that.


And i will rather not comment on the personal comments that you have made out of respect of the trade and since we are from different eras of technology.


Let see it this way, If they were not interested to work on the bots issue why would they even keep the post. they would rather tell the CMs and mod to just delete the post rather than closing it. Closing the post will only keep the discussion for others to see but deleting them would leave no trace. Just being adamant and shouting about the issue being there will not get a response. 


Till date you would also acknowledge that all the time you were getting a response saying that "We are working on it" i just took the time to explain the things that i know from the other side. It is not that we are the only one frustrated for solving the issue, even Plarium sees this issue as an issue however at the same time there are other issue that actually hinder with the game play so they would always take priority. With 25 years of experience, you out of all people will definitely know about categorization and prioritization of problem and the factors that are influenced to do this.

User experience is one of them but visual or cosmetic bugs or bugs that do not stop you from performing you activity take the least priority. I would you since you are senior in the trade to acknowledge the point.


Also lets concentrate on the point that permanent fix is as important in this case as a workaround.
Please Like the Post if you agree or if it helps
UTC +6:00
jumy
30 December, 2016, 6:32 AM UTC

zapelo said:


I think you should stop embarrassing yourself by trying to lecture people.


1. This game is not a P.O.S. system.

2. Coding language does not have anything to do with the application logs. "This gives me the first doubt in your knowledge and experience"

3. The other clue to you poor judgement is that you call a P.O.S. system simple.

4. Explanation for point 3.. Logs should be just text right? So that is a bit over 1,000,000,000 characters. Now in the logs of a P.O.S. system only ids, time stamps and amounts should be saved. So one log record should be quite small say 50 characters (compressed) that gives us 20,000,000 records. "Simple ... yeah right"

5. Calling other people "simple minded" just shows me that in the 12+ years you have not learned to respect people that are not "coders" but are "users". Also you probably think that you are superior to them. That tells me a lot about your persona.

6. If this "game" needs millions of lines of code in (AS = front end part of the game) (Sever side seems to be done in .net) then everyone at plarium should be fired.

7. Someone "DJMOODY" already gave an example how to prevent people using macro scripts (read other posts) honestly this should be the only way they can deal with multiple accounts. If they are able to do it in other ways then all the server side code should be redone cause there is something horribly wrong.

8. Some solutions do not need inventing a whole new science. You just have to look at other solutions and possibly adjust them to your needs. That of course can be done if there is a will to do it.


Shall i continue?


Get this from someone that has been doing this (development) for 25 years now.


agree all

7 if they block automatism and other tricks this game switches off, are functions you use with other clients, autohotkey and similar should not be confused (pixel coord)

autobot is not only bot castles, pay attention....

the difficulty is this, keep their tricks for their community, a client with control and autocontrol for xxx castles

say internal leak.... look at how many platforms and where it comes this game....


basic control: 

block proxy/vpn

function share ip and block push

result = actual castles / 1000 (to be tight)


real problem is their abuse their facility = trap for real players

The truth hurts
UTC +12:00
exxxe
30 December, 2016, 8:03 AM UTC

roadstar Pitbull said:


Warrior said:


I am just saying they are working on it to fix it permanently rather than putting a temporary fix. That is all i have been saying in all the posts above.

I really hate to step in,,,,,,, BUT...

We have all heard how secretive and confidential the development  and coding side is. How is it that a new mod can suddenly have all this knowledge and insight????

And btw,,, this "fix" has been in process for how long??? Maybe a few days, not the years of knowledge of the issue.

it is secretive but we do know this 

plarium is currently working on the issue but it is taking time so be patient 

what Biohazard and Warrior are saying is

 plarium is working on it and seeking for it to be a permanent fix ( not constantly requiring players reports )


im not sure if any company can completely stop the creation of bots but they can for sure detect them and remove them (which is what plarium is currently after )

I'am me and that is what i care about :)
UTC +3:00
zapelo
30 December, 2016, 6:04 PM UTC

Warrior said:


Point taken Zap, You and me both agree the solution should be permanent not a temporary fix.


That was the whole point of discussion. The solution should be permanent and the solution should come soon, the date needs to be provided (which is the only thing i see is the biggest problem here).


Pleasure talking to an expert int he field, you would also acknowledge if the cant find a permanent fix a workaround should be put but it should also not increase the load on the resources. So yup i agree with all of that.


And i will rather not comment on the personal comments that you have made out of respect of the trade and since we are from different eras of technology.


Let see it this way, If they were not interested to work on the bots issue why would they even keep the post. they would rather tell the CMs and mod to just delete the post rather than closing it. Closing the post will only keep the discussion for others to see but deleting them would leave no trace. Just being adamant and shouting about the issue being there will not get a response. 


Till date you would also acknowledge that all the time you were getting a response saying that "We are working on it" i just took the time to explain the things that i know from the other side. It is not that we are the only one frustrated for solving the issue, even Plarium sees this issue as an issue however at the same time there are other issue that actually hinder with the game play so they would always take priority. With 25 years of experience, you out of all people will definitely know about categorization and prioritization of problem and the factors that are influenced to do this.

User experience is one of them but visual or cosmetic bugs or bugs that do not stop you from performing you activity take the least priority. I would you since you are senior in the trade to acknowledge the point.


Also lets concentrate on the point that permanent fix is as important in this case as a workaround.

There you go again... Trying to show yourself as more modern/superior.


If someone is doing something longer than you it does not mean they are "from a different era of tech"

You have no clue what tech i use in day to day work. You would probably be surprised.


But back to the topic.

I do not acknowledge that they want to fix the problem cause of the following reasons

1. the bots are in game for more than a year and they did exactly nothing about them (now tell me how much code can you rewrite in a year)

2. there are bugs in the game that are there for 2+ years 

3. there have been numerous instances when they introduced a "new feature" and caused a bug in an existing feature.... you would expect they will fix the issue but they simply ignore it

4...... i could continue but i do not wish to write a novel


In preventing macro exploits there is no permanent solution there is only ways of making the possibility of using macros as hard as possible. The solution must be effective and after implementation the situation has to be monitored. But to do that there has to be a will.


Back to you

1. You can comment on whatever i wrote about anyone and anything

2. What were you trying to say when you stated that you explained "things that you know from the other side"? "Dark side"? Sorry had to pull your leg there.

3. In other words in the quoted post you used up 1,981 bytes for the text you wrote but have not explained a single thing and made no valid point.


So again stop embarrassing yourself and as you like to say "the trade".  

UTC +0:00
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