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Battleground mechanics -- An update

19 Replies
albert
6 November, 2016, 11:06 PM UTC

Dear all,


the discussion on the battleground mechanics is split over many threads, which all have a variety of outdated information due to game updates. I wanted to summarize below what I have understood from my many hours of reading the forum and to list few questions that some experienced players may be willing to answer. Just to say, I'm not a coiner player, so strategies like "revive your units spending saphires to send them again in the BGs" are not what I am looking for


The reward system is based on a bank. This bank is filled when units are killed in the BGs and is emptied when rewards are given. The filling and emptying are based on the ressource costs of units, not on their off/def power. When a reward is given the bank is emptied by the amount of ressources given increased by a small tax, so that there cannot be a net gain of ressources.


I would like to know a few facts. Please do not give your "I think that" but rather only your "I know that because I am in this big league which has done all the maths and we are nice guys so that we are happy to share our knowledge".


1/ Are all ressources counted in the bank or only gold & iron? Many people have told me only gold and iron, but then units like chimera would be useless. Plus, this thread


https://plarium.com/en/ask-a-developer/plarium-game-algo/


points to all ressources counting. (This is for another plarium's game, though...)


2/ Is there a bonus when you kill a BGs with a higher level. Again, I've been told that the higher the BGs, the better the reward ,in the sense the larger the ratio

(ressources gotten in reward)/(ressources spent in the BGs to get the reward)

So that there would not only be a tax (that would cost you ressources) but also some gains that would be larger for larger BGs. Have some people evidence for that ?


3/ People often say that you have to repay your debt to the bank once you have gotten a reward. At the same time, they say that you have to first bank N(X) ressources to get a reward from a BG of level X to get a big payout where N(X) is tabulated somewhere in one of the long thread:


http://plarium.com/forum/en/stormfall-age-of-war/game-tutorials/10777_banking-battlegrounds/?post=68925


But that does not make sense. Indeed, If the first part of the sentence were true, I would start with a zero bank, get a payout of N ressources for some BG and then get a reward as soon as I have paid the N ressources plus tax back. This cannot depend on the level of the nest I kill. Alternatively,  the mechanism could be the opposite: you first  bank N ressources, then if you kill a BG of level X and N>N(X), you get a payout and your bank becomes  N - payout + (units lost in the BG). Is this right?

4/ Note that this leaves one question left: are the units used to kill the BG counted in the bank ? I.e. is it:

if N + (units lost in the BG of level X) > N(X), then you get a big payout after killing the BG of level X ?


5/ Smart players had found a way to get huge armies by using the `minimal payback system'. You yellow bar a very large number of BGs, then get the huge reward from top-level BG and your bank comes back to zero. But then you kill all the other BG's, which are yellowed, and get the 'minimal reward' for each of them. Your bank become very negative, you will never get a reward again, but you have a huge army. Plarium has tried to put a stop to that. Some people said that the change plarium implemented was that your bank is only filled with the ressources used to yellow-bar a BG once it's killed. That cannot be true because plarium has said that yellow-baring the BG only slow down the rate at which large payout is obtained. This implies that yellow-barring BG's still give large payout, which would not be the case if ressources were not added to the bank. Can someone confirm this ?


6/ An alternative to what people suggested would be that when you attack a BG, its reward (or minimal reward) is already in the system and you only increase your bank by (the unit you lose) minus (the reward you will get) or (the minimal reward you will get). This could prevent the aforementionned strategy to work (completely in the first case, only 'severely in the second). Then, yellow-barring BG would be neither useless nor harmless. Has someone tested this hypothesis? (Which can be done yellow-barring BG's, checking when a reward is given, and then getting all the minimal rewards to check if that's what's need to bring back the bank close to zero).


7/ People have complained that the change implemented in 5/ makes it impossible to know when a reward will happen. I kind of disagree if one uses a uphill/downhill strategy. If your bank is close to empty, you first kill BG of increasing levels. You cannot get huge reward since large payout of the next level BG is obtained for an amount of ressource you cannot have lost in lower level BG's. Then, you revert the order and go down in levels. This way your bank keeps increasing while the threshold for reward N(X) decreases as the level of BG you kill decreases. They will cross and you will then get a reward. This is the strategy I am using these days, though deciding when switching from going uphill to downhill is always a bit random and has to be adapted to tournament's rewards :-)


Anyway, thanks for your input !


Alb



UTC +1:00
IronApex Turok
6 November, 2016, 11:28 PM UTC

it doesnt matter.


once you have the answers you are looking for, plarium will call you a cheat and change the rules again. 
UTC +0:00
thefray
7 November, 2016, 4:30 AM UTC

I am not sure I understand all your questions.


As far as resources, all are counted gold/iron and food so here is a tip from a big league, build troops that take the most food for BG. Until your army grows beyond food production most have excess food and food heavy raids so build these food heavy troops to load BG.


You wording of bonus and reward is a bit confusing.The only reward you get is during BG tourneys, other than that the resource you put in by killing (loading troops) is what you get out at some time or another, the trick is knowing what you have in there so you can try to kill the appropriate level to get it all out in one big payout but that is not always the case. Even when you have the proper amount loaded you are not guaranteed a payout on the next BG there is some randomization going on it seems. There are times resources get stuck in BG but eventually they come out it just may take some time.
UTC +0:00
albert
7 November, 2016, 7:44 AM UTC

Hi Thefray,

thanks for you your first answer, regarding ressources.

Yes, I used equivalently "rewards" and "payout" in the above, which may be confusing. I was always refering to the units you get from the BGs and never from tournament rewards. I am happy clarifying my questions if you point more precisely to what is confusing in them (beyond the "reward" thing).

Best,

Alb


UTC +1:00
Oracle
7 November, 2016, 8:12 AM UTC

1. Yes all resources count. But some resources have higher priority and so cost more than others. In order of  priority the resources are as followed

* Iron
*Gold
*Unspecified
*Maranian Amulets
*Sapphires

So these mean that an Imperial golom will have far less resources  value than and a ''maranan golom'' which will have far less value than a Eldrick golom  and and even far less value than a normal golom

2. YES, the is bonus when you kill the highest BG, if you do the all in method it will be equal in value to the Quest percentage rewards. For example if a quest takes 100K in pikes to complete and gives 120K pikes in return. then the highest BG will have the same value in returns. But if you Bank, you will either receive higher or lower interests than normal. The skull some say ''eat your rewards'' I am not sure about that yet.


3. Indeed, You have to pay back the what you owe to the bank before it pays you back. Think the reward as a loan, And the individual BG level as cashier machines. The bank can only give you a loan if you either never taken money from cashier machine N( If not banking), or you have filled all the cash back into the cashier machines( if you are banking). IF you are ''Banking'' every time you take a loan you empty one cashier machine, and every time you are ''banking'' you are filling in the cashier machine.

 4. refer to 3

5 6 7 are classified. 


Hope I helped. I just reproduced what I have been told
Gedleyihlekisa: Oracle the postremogeniture
UTC +2:00
albert
7 November, 2016, 9:41 AM UTC

Hi Orchid,

thanks a lot for your answer ! Few more questions :-)

oracle said:


2. YES, the is bonus when you kill the highest BG, if you do the all in method it will be equal in value to the Quest percentage rewards. For example if a quest takes 100K in pikes to complete and gives 120K pikes in return. then the highest BG will have the same value in returns. But if you Bank, you will either receive higher or lower interests than normal. The skull some say ''eat your rewards'' I am not sure about that yet.

I am not sure I understand here.

1/ What is the all in method ? :-)

2/ When you speak about quest, you mean saga quest ? How do you know the value of the reward since it is in legendary/eldrich units?

Could you give some example ? The bonus for a level 25 or 35 BG for instance and how you work it out ?




3. Indeed, You have to pay back the what you owe to the bank before it pays you back. Think the reward as a loan, And the individual BG level as cashier machines. The bank can only give you a loan if you either never taken money from cashier machine N( If not banking), or you have filled all the cash back into the cashier machines( if you are banking). IF you are ''Banking'' every time you take a loan you empty one cashier machine, and every time you are ''banking'' you are filling in the cashier machine.

I am not sure I understand. Clearly if I owe money to cashiers corresponding to level 1-30 I cannot keep getting  large payout from cashiers 30-50, otherwise I could get one payout per level, which seems wrong to me. So cashiers cannot be independent.


One way to understand your answer is to say: you get a payout from BG level X, repay this loan and then get a payout for *whatever BG you want". But then tables like this one

http://plarium.com/forum/en/stormfall-age-of-war/game-tutorials/10777_banking-battlegrounds/2


would be wrong since they say you have to put a given amount of money N(X) in the bank to get a reward from BG level X.


Thanks for your answers, sorry for not making more out of it !


Alb

UTC +1:00
djmoody
7 November, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

oracle said:


So these mean that an Imperial golom will have far less resources  value than and a ''maranan golom'' which will have far less value than a Eldrick golom  and and even far less value than a normal golom

As I hate players being led down the garden path on BG's by misinformation I will tell you that most of that statement is just utterly wrong.

Dark, Elditch and normal units all have the same resource banking value. I have never been able to test the imperial units as I am not a coiner and have never had a significant amount of them to test with. If you don't want to risk imperials, simply darken them.

Curiously there isn't such a thing as a Maranian golem (although I thought I would at least spell it right). 

I doubt any normal players have significant number of maranian troops, so not really a big issue. As a result, again not something I have been able to test personally - but I wouldn't recommend loading them. Logically as they are unique troop types not build from resource there is a high risk they don't add much to your bank.



Alber said:

1/ Are all ressources counted in the bank or only gold & iron? Many people have told me only gold and iron, but then units like chimera would be useless. Plus, this thread

This is also utter BS. People telling you that clearly haven't never tracked res in and our of BG's at all. Even simple monitoring of BG's would show that, you should ignore anything they say. 

Chimera, Reavers and Pathfinders only exist in game, their purpose, is as BG loading troops (although double pathfinder relic gave pathfinders a legitmate use outside of BGs).

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
UTC +0:00
Oracle
7 November, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

Sorry about the Spelling errors. I typed that in a hurry. I will fix it.

@DJ Moody

Dark, Elditch and normal units all have the same resource banking value. I have never been able to test the imperial units as I am not a coiner and have never had a significant amount of them to test with. If you don't want to risk imperials, simply darken them.

These seems to be highly hypothetical. but then Again i provided a cut and paste of people words and experience without an explanation. So the thesis, remain fallacious. To avoid confusion I think you should stick to Dj answer. I have never proven the fact that Maranian troops are far less in bank value compared to Normal troops, I normally just have a bad payout when I yellow bar with Eldritch, Imperial, Maranian Troops.  But when I use normal troops the bank balance is precise as the table referenced above. These of-course can't serve as proof, nor can it disprove the above.

As for 

Imperial----> darken=normal troops.

 I have heard of these, and it's bare assertion fallacy. Just like the leave 2000 dark essence in a beacon or bular won't hit hypothesis. if it be true then a level 20 archer must hypothetically be less in resources value than a level 25 archer. Since they have different stats. 

I have decided to leave the English and the typo the way they are  copy right infringement and stuff ®

Gedleyihlekisa: Oracle the postremogeniture
UTC +2:00
Juglar del Viento
Moderator
8 November, 2016, 10:53 AM UTC

Indeed nice post my lords

hope this can help players and unify ideas about BG's to clarify new players how to hit them

good work


Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
albert
20 November, 2016, 12:34 AM UTC

Well, well, not many answers regarding the new mechanics vs yellow-barring and the details of how the bank work (loan vs investment, do the units sent in the BG count for the reward of this BG or only for the following one). I thus add one more question :-)


Has anyone worked out the equivalent amount of ressources of the skulls we get for the hightest level BGs ?

Regarding people complaing about BG not spitting out rewards, I have been tracking my ressources for most of November and things worked out rather normally until yesterday where I got a reward 3M of ressources before I expected one... I did not try during the famous week-end where BGs are supposed not to have spit any rewards.


Alb
UTC +1:00
Extremption
21 November, 2016, 12:38 AM UTC

I hate to burst your bubble Albert but being a non-coiner myself i do not participate in BG's anymore as they simply aren't worth doing. Your assumption of the rewards get profitable the higher bg's you go is folly. It's infact the opposite, something more was changed when this "unfair advantage" mechanical update came in which wasn't for the better of the players, you lose more troops overall than 6 months ago and thats a fact!


The "unfair advantage" update was basically saying you were receiving too many profitable rewards etc so we have decided to nerf them sneakily so you think its all good & spend more money to cover the losses


As you can see most of the experienced players replys here are basically saying "don't bother" because at the moment you cannot make good off them and they say dont bother because when you could & players figured it out, plarium put a stop to that pretty quickly with this "unfair advantage" mechanical update.


In short, don't do BG's. In fact id find another game to invest your valuable time in because this games only going to get worse, especially for f2p players like us. I give it 6 months before this game folds, all because of their incredibly greedy nature the last 6 months+. Not a single update in the last 6 months has given players more for free, but taken away & created every opportunity to spend money to cover the losses or keep up with the others.


Its pathetic & plarium treat their customers like lambs to the slaughter


Go elsewhere Albert & save yourself 6 months of valuable time
UTC +10:00
Solidarius
23 November, 2016, 12:35 AM UTC
hey Extremtpion....

I hate to burst your bubble, but, I am a non coiner myself 2, and I do pretty decent with battleground .... 


I use the yellow bar tactic or strategy or w/e you call it


heres an example from today:


http://prntscr.com/damdka


I believe it was a lvl 28, I only send pals and knights and I got out necros and golems,.... its not the greatest since I have received dragons and wyverns before, but IT IS 100% WORTH IT, 


id rather have 100 necros than 1000 pals. 


for some of us that dont have all the lost arts discovered battlegrounds is the only option to receive any kind of high end troops. 

UTC +5:00
Reaper
23 November, 2016, 2:53 AM UTC
cos you have still reserves in your bank players whose play constantly BGs esp higher lvs (40 and above) need a quite bit more troops to fill the bank that they get a nearly good payout from BGs
UTC +1:00
Solidarius
24 November, 2016, 4:42 AM UTC

Reaper...


how do higher level players constantly do BG's?... at my lvl It takes me around 4-5days to gather the "bank" aka train troops to feed the battlegrounds and then receive my "payout"

since higher level BGS are stronger and take more troops to "fill the bank" ...how are players "constantly" doing it? are they buying  the troops in the Infirmary and resending them? I dont see how you can Constantly do BG's can you please explain?


I seen a few post of the Forum complaining about changes in battleground... what exactly was changed? and why are people so upset about it?

 

UTC +5:00
Reaper
24 November, 2016, 2:26 PM UTC

Not all play BGs like you i would need to feed them over more days too, but i know few are playing BGs and that daily and few revive their troops with sapphires, dont forget few have a deep pocket and they use it constantly.

And the troops they can send are more, i learnt to play them with troops i can replace it means if i can train barbarians i can send them in BGs if not i try to keep the troops i dont can train. Now i could send all...

In server 1 you see it often the coining part there is a lot higher than in server 2. If i see in few of the screenshots what they throw arround with money im sick for me it would be 1 month more where i could pay my bills and eat "normal".

For me not possible if i would play lv 60 or above i would need weeks or months to fill them.

UTC +1:00
BiohazarD
Moderator
26 November, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

oracle said:


Sorry about the Spelling errors. I typed that in a hurry. I will fix it.

@DJ Moody

Dark, Elditch and normal units all have the same resource banking value. I have never been able to test the imperial units as I am not a coiner and have never had a significant amount of them to test with. If you don't want to risk imperials, simply darken them.

These seems to be highly hypothetical. but then Again i provided a cut and paste of people words and experience without an explanation. So the thesis, remain fallacious. To avoid confusion I think you should stick to Dj answer. I have never proven the fact that Maranian troops are far less in bank value compared to Normal troops, I normally just have a bad payout when I yellow bar with Eldritch, Imperial, Maranian Troops.  But when I use normal troops the bank balance is precise as the table referenced above. These of-course can't serve as proof, nor can it disprove the above.

As for 

Imperial----> darken=normal troops.

 I have heard of these, and it's bare assertion fallacy. Just like the leave 2000 dark essence in a beacon or bular won't hit hypothesis. if it be true then a level 20 archer must hypothetically be less in resources value than a level 25 archer. Since they have different stats. 

I have decided to leave the English and the typo the way they are  copy right infringement and stuff ®

I have tested this, and can confirm that normal, darkened, imperial, and eldrich troops all have the same resource value for bg loading (at least within about 1%).  The maranian troops seem to load at the value of the normal resources used to make them (so each amulet counts as 2 res) therefore you lose a lot of power loading maranian troops into bgs and wining back regular troops. 

I can also confirm that the thing about leaving dark essence in a beacon has been tested and is false.  But it is fun watching other leagues freak out and kick good members for accidentally taking the DE below some arbitrary mark. 
UTC +0:00
albert
26 November, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

Hi Biohazard,


you seem to be a big BG player. Care to answer the question 1/, 3/, 4/ of the original post ?


Thanks !


Alb
UTC +1:00
BiohazarD
Moderator
26 November, 2016, 11:55 PM UTC

albert said:


Dear all,


the discussion on the battleground mechanics is split over many threads, which all have a variety of outdated information due to game updates. I wanted to summarize below what I have understood from my many hours of reading the forum and to list few questions that some experienced players may be willing to answer. Just to say, I'm not a coiner player, so strategies like "revive your units spending saphires to send them again in the BGs" are not what I am looking for


The reward system is based on a bank. This bank is filled when units are killed in the BGs and is emptied when rewards are given. The filling and emptying are based on the ressource costs of units, not on their off/def power. When a reward is given the bank is emptied by the amount of ressources given increased by a small tax, so that there cannot be a net gain of ressources.


I would like to know a few facts. Please do not give your "I think that" but rather only your "I know that because I am in this big league which has done all the maths and we are nice guys so that we are happy to share our knowledge".


1/ Are all ressources counted in the bank or only gold & iron? Many people have told me only gold and iron, but then units like chimera would be useless. Plus, this thread


https://plarium.com/en/ask-a-developer/plarium-game-algo/


points to all ressources counting. (This is for another plarium's game, though...)


2/ Is there a bonus when you kill a BGs with a higher level. Again, I've been told that the higher the BGs, the better the reward ,in the sense the larger the ratio

(ressources gotten in reward)/(ressources spent in the BGs to get the reward)

So that there would not only be a tax (that would cost you ressources) but also some gains that would be larger for larger BGs. Have some people evidence for that ?


3/ People often say that you have to repay your debt to the bank once you have gotten a reward. At the same time, they say that you have to first bank N(X) ressources to get a reward from a BG of level X to get a big payout where N(X) is tabulated somewhere in one of the long thread:


http://plarium.com/forum/en/stormfall-age-of-war/game-tutorials/10777_banking-battlegrounds/?post=68925


But that does not make sense. Indeed, If the first part of the sentence were true, I would start with a zero bank, get a payout of N ressources for some BG and then get a reward as soon as I have paid the N ressources plus tax back. This cannot depend on the level of the nest I kill. Alternatively,  the mechanism could be the opposite: you first  bank N ressources, then if you kill a BG of level X and N>N(X), you get a payout and your bank becomes  N - payout + (units lost in the BG). Is this right?

4/ Note that this leaves one question left: are the units used to kill the BG counted in the bank ? I.e. is it:

if N + (units lost in the BG of level X) > N(X), then you get a big payout after killing the BG of level X ?


5/ Smart players had found a way to get huge armies by using the `minimal payback system'. You yellow bar a very large number of BGs, then get the huge reward from top-level BG and your bank comes back to zero. But then you kill all the other BG's, which are yellowed, and get the 'minimal reward' for each of them. Your bank become very negative, you will never get a reward again, but you have a huge army. Plarium has tried to put a stop to that. Some people said that the change plarium implemented was that your bank is only filled with the ressources used to yellow-bar a BG once it's killed. That cannot be true because plarium has said that yellow-baring the BG only slow down the rate at which large payout is obtained. This implies that yellow-barring BG's still give large payout, which would not be the case if ressources were not added to the bank. Can someone confirm this ?


6/ An alternative to what people suggested would be that when you attack a BG, its reward (or minimal reward) is already in the system and you only increase your bank by (the unit you lose) minus (the reward you will get) or (the minimal reward you will get). This could prevent the aforementionned strategy to work (completely in the first case, only 'severely in the second). Then, yellow-barring BG would be neither useless nor harmless. Has someone tested this hypothesis? (Which can be done yellow-barring BG's, checking when a reward is given, and then getting all the minimal rewards to check if that's what's need to bring back the bank close to zero).


7/ People have complained that the change implemented in 5/ makes it impossible to know when a reward will happen. I kind of disagree if one uses a uphill/downhill strategy. If your bank is close to empty, you first kill BG of increasing levels. You cannot get huge reward since large payout of the next level BG is obtained for an amount of ressource you cannot have lost in lower level BG's. Then, you revert the order and go down in levels. This way your bank keeps increasing while the threshold for reward N(X) decreases as the level of BG you kill decreases. They will cross and you will then get a reward. This is the strategy I am using these days, though deciding when switching from going uphill to downhill is always a bit random and has to be adapted to tournament's rewards :-)


Anyway, thanks for your input !


Alb



1. Yes, iron gold and food all count the same towards the bg bank.  Amulets each count as 2 resources.  I'm not sure how crystals in legendaries count, I've never had enough lying around to just suicide them into bgs. 

2. There does not seem to be any reward for hitting higher level bgs (of course to win class 4 hero items you have to hit level 60+ bgs, so that is a benefit).  You put more troops in and get more troops back, but the ratio always stays the same. 

3. These are 2 different ways of tracking resource loading.  You can start at zero, subtracting resources whenever you win troops and adding whenever you lose troops, and you will usually get a payout when you get the bank up to zero.  Or you start at zero, add resources until you reach the amount that it takes to get a payout on a given level, then kill that level and it will pay you your resources back. 

Both of these methods were created by players as a guess at how the actual banking system implemented by plarium works, so it is unknown which one (if either) is correct.  But both seem to predict payouts fairly well (until the increase in payout randomization plarium introduced a few months ago). 


4. This is generally correct (see 3) however there is a high randomness factor in the payout system now, so you will often get payouts when you didn't have quite enough loaded, or not get payouts when you had plenty loaded and expected a big payout. 

5. When you yellowbar a bg, part of the res you load in are added to the bank as you kill the troops, and part are trapped in the bg until you kill it. Yes, this trick did exist, it was possible to pull 70-100 million offense or defense from the bgs.  Plarium's changes have made this more difficult but similar tricks are still possible. 

More information on this is generally kept secret by the leagues who know it, because it gives a huge advantage over their enemies. 



UTC +0:00
albert
27 November, 2016, 10:17 AM UTC

Hi biohazard,


thanks for your answer :-)


There is one point which I do not find perfectly clear, though:


"Both of these methods were created by players as a guess at how the actual banking system implemented by plarium works, so it is unknown which one (if either) is correct.  But both seem to predict payouts fairly well (until the increase in payout randomization plarium introduced a few months ago)."


For the first method, the amount you to bank to get a payout DOES NOT DEPEND on the level of the next BG you hit, only on the last big payout you get.

For the second method, you need to load a given amount of value that depends on the next BG you want to get a payout form.


So I though these two methods could not work at the same time ^^


Apart from that, I will keep looking for the smart method you mention :-)


Have fun !


Alb

UTC +1:00
BiohazarD
Moderator
28 November, 2016, 7:25 AM UTC

albert said:


Hi biohazard,


thanks for your answer :-)


There is one point which I do not find perfectly clear, though:


"Both of these methods were created by players as a guess at how the actual banking system implemented by plarium works, so it is unknown which one (if either) is correct.  But both seem to predict payouts fairly well (until the increase in payout randomization plarium introduced a few months ago)."


For the first method, the amount you to bank to get a payout DOES NOT DEPEND on the level of the next BG you hit, only on the last big payout you get.

For the second method, you need to load a given amount of value that depends on the next BG you want to get a payout form.


So I though these two methods could not work at the same time ^^


Apart from that, I will keep looking for the smart method you mention :-)


Have fun !


Alb

The actual algorithm seems to be something in between these two methods.  From what I've found, when you've about loaded back in the amount of the last payout the lower levels will start paying out, but to get the higher levels to pay out you have to load in a bit more.  So either estimate gives you a rough estimate of how much you need to load, but neither is 100% accurate. 


UTC +0:00
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