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Offence Defense Imbalance

60 Replies
djmoody
15 September, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

Offence and defence are imbalanced in 2 ways that might well threaten to kill the server over the next couple of months.

1. Defence is about 3 times more expensive to buy than offence

2. BG split payouts are quite often 50/50 even when they are supposed to be defence heavy splits. This is because the split is done on number of troops not the power or resource value of the troops

So when ppl coin they invariable coin offence. Even the people that coin and don't understand the price difference tend to coin offence because most people want big offence to attack things and boost their ego.

When people do BG's heavily they will over time consume their defence and generate offence, ending up as a very heavily focused offence player. This happens even if you engineer a lot of your payouts as defence (which is not so easy these days due to the high level of randomness to payouts). Best you can hope for if you are very good at BG's is to remain about 50/50.

Plarium should have the stats but I suspect offence outnumbers defence by about 2:1 maybe as much as 3:1.

You will have seen from the beacon map that we are moving to a position where no major league holds beacons. The only entities still holding beacons are ones that haven't been drawn into the recent war. Off > Def problem is already showing in our game.

This could get significantly worse. Lets say one side wins, no beacons for anyone. What will ppl do with all the offence they still have. My guess is they will use for something (otherwise they just quit) and even more leagues will lose beacons. We could easily get to the point that the only way to be a beacon holding league is to have diplo with everyone major because any one of them would have the offence to take you out if they wanted. No one will be able to hold beacons other than at the behest of other leagues. We could be heading for a very broken game.

Solution:

- Change unit prices and revive prices on defence units to be in line with the power per sapphire ratio of offensive units

- Change the BG split mechanic to work off power or resource (not straight number of troops).

I didn't just want this problem to be lost in suggestions. I want players to be aware of this problem before it over takes the game.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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FAILO
15 September, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

I started off primarily a def player but from bgs mostly it has been changed and i have changed my style so to that now my offence is about 3x stronger than my def

i have to agree there is still a insignificance in def power. and the longer i play the less it seems as important exept some in beacons and fortress.
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Jezebel
15 September, 2016, 6:21 PM UTC

yup totally agree with this and have seen it develop this way in my own account as well

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Lord
15 September, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

1.playing BG is the only way to grow units and yes the bank payout favours Offence

2.in an attack players lose more on Def compare to Offence

3.with the existence of Cat, there's no need to have Def units except for beacons

therefore, naturally players will tend to be Offence heavy
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Jezebel
15 September, 2016, 7:30 PM UTC
Lord said:

1.playing BG is the only way to grow units and yes the bank payout favours Offence

2.in an attack players lose more on Def compare to Offence

3.with the existence of Cat, there's no need to have Def units except for beacons

therefore, naturally players will tend to be Offence heavy
not really I like defense PVP but unfortunately with all the offense heavy players out there I cannot keep enough defense in my castle to do this effectively
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Lord
15 September, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

An Offensive player can put all his/her Defense units into beacons and use all Offense to play PvP/BG.

A Defensive player must divide his/her Defense for beacons and PvP/BG.

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IronApex Turok
15 September, 2016, 8:01 PM UTC

djmoody said:


 We could easily get to the point that the only way to be a beacon holding league is to have diplo with everyone major because any one of them would have the offence to take you out if they wanted. No one will be able to hold beacons other than at the behest of other leagues. We could be heading for a very broken game.


Isnt that the way it pretty much is on server 1?  With Emperors going around and knocking down beacons and just giving them away to low level leagues.


like you said, the beacon landscape is rapidly changing.  at this point, with the little amount of influence a beacon gives, its almost better to just forget beacons all together and do fortress upgrades.


atleast then, you have something to do with  your offense, since it takes a lot of offense to knock down a fortress given the siege mechanics. 


i beacons go away, and leagues are ranked by their fotress, it may give a better indicator of the power of a league.   Although, i'd like to see influence points for attacking fortresses. 



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Jezebel
15 September, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC
IronApex Turok said:

djmoody said:


 We could easily get to the point that the only way to be a beacon holding league is to have diplo with everyone major because any one of them would have the offence to take you out if they wanted. No one will be able to hold beacons other than at the behest of other leagues. We could be heading for a very broken game.


Isnt that the way it pretty much is on server 1?  With Emperors going around and knocking down beacons and just giving them away to low level leagues.


like you said, the beacon landscape is rapidly changing.  at this point, with the little amount of influence a beacon gives, its almost better to just forget beacons all together and do fortress upgrades.


atleast then, you have something to do with  your offense, since it takes a lot of offense to knock down a fortress given the siege mechanics. 


i beacons go away, and leagues are ranked by their fotress, it may give a better indicator of the power of a league.   Although, i'd like to see influence points for attacking fortresses. 



Check your league's embassy page there are influence points given for having a fortress.  What Plarium hasn't considered is that by introducing the fortress the beacon game is on a decline and anyone who has a fortress beyond a milestone that is defended will never lose it due to the siege mechanics and force limits.  So there you have it, stale mate.  
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Jezebel
15 September, 2016, 9:23 PM UTC

Lord said:


An Offensive player can put all his/her Defense units into beacons and use all Offense to play PvP/BG.

A Defensive player must divide his/her Defense for beacons and PvP/BG.

Sure but if everyone's defense is in the beacons, on the fortresses or in catacombs how much PVP are you actually going to get?  So you hope to find a handful of builds on someone's castle - big deal, or you run into a castle stacked with alt defense

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toggit
16 September, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

Just try visiting Stormfall on the Kabam.com server where there are dozens of abandoned beacons - Defense is dead and burried - Long live Offense

You will also see that all forts are level zero, 5 or 8 .... none contain defense

The Flag Tournament was a hideous joke - 2 Leagues captured EVERY flag on the entire server



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SeriousSummer
16 September, 2016, 7:54 PM UTC
I think the answer is to greatly increase the defensive force multiplier for beacons. A level 5 beacon should have a defensive multiplier of 5, and the same for every level of beacon. That way there would be a fair chance to hold on to beacons.
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nobody
16 September, 2016, 8:46 PM UTC

SeriousSummer said:


I think the answer is to greatly increase the defensive force multiplier for beacons. A level 5 beacon should have a defensive multiplier of 5, and the same for every level of beacon. That way there would be a fair chance to hold on to beacons.
i don't know much about beacons, when you say multiplier of 5, do you mean a 500% increase?  in risk you get an xtra dice, that being a 50% increase for defense.  other games i play have a 5% to 20% increase for both offense and defense depending on terrain.  beacons are a big deal, maybe a 500% increase is proper, maybe not.
that doesn't fix all defense though.  the terrain bonus of a fully walled castle, from what i have read,  seems to be a low percentage as well.  my castle is not fully walled or beyond level 1, and i don't have alot of other improvements either. so i don't know.  {tbh, i don't do formulas.}
but what i don't understand on beacons would be high ranking leagues having trouble defending them.  from what i've seen an attacker can send 3 players at a time and high ranking leagues have a 100 strong players defending.
so it is the issues that create a scenario that 3 players can effectively take on 100 that needs fixed the most.  but i don't know about beacons.  it seems to me that djmoody's points of emphasis are  a start.

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FAILO
16 September, 2016, 8:54 PM UTC
johanrayne said:

SeriousSummer said:


I think the answer is to greatly increase the defensive force multiplier for beacons. A level 5 beacon should have a defensive multiplier of 5, and the same for every level of beacon. That way there would be a fair chance to hold on to beacons.
i don't know much about beacons, when you say multiplier of 5, do you mean a 500% increase?  in risk you get an xtra dice, that being a 50% increase for defense.  other games i play have a 5% to 20% increase for both offense and defense depending on terrain.  beacons are a big deal, maybe a 500% increase is proper, maybe not.
that doesn't fix all defense though.  the terrain bonus of a fully walled castle, from what i have read,  seems to be a low percentage as well.  my castle is not fully walled or beyond level 1, and i don't have alot of other improvements either. so i don't know.  {tbh, i don't do formulas.}
but what i don't understand on beacons would be high ranking leagues having trouble defending them.  from what i've seen an attacker can send 3 players at a time and high ranking leagues have a 100 strong players defending.
so it is the issues that create a scenario that 3 players can effectively take on 100 that needs fixed the most.  but i don't know about beacons.  it seems to me that djmoody's points of emphasis are  a start.

Beacons get a 5% def for each level so lv 1 will be 5% bonus and level 5 will be 25% bonus.  Horrible idea (my opinion) to increase def in beacons by 500% WAY to much.. but the way the game is going it might be necessary later on. As for the 3 players taking a beacons.. When you take a beacon you send lots of weakening attacks first a few million every 3 players contributes and sends in groups of 3 then then the BIG hammers come out and smash what is left with a few hundred mil or even a billion..  And once a league hold say 10 beacons with 100 players really it would only be 10 players defending each one in theory making them even weaker.
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djmoody
18 September, 2016, 1:49 AM UTC

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and relies. 

I posted this in suggestions also, hopefully Plarium seeing complete unanimous support may take notice of the point. Hopefully we might have done some good (and keep the feedback coming - ty).

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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db dbomb
18 September, 2016, 7:47 AM UTC
wow...agreed
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Gadheras
18 September, 2016, 8:42 AM UTC

The evolution of any game is to play it as effective as possible. Maximize profit/objective Vs risk. When players learn there is certain objectives and tasks that is not worth the time or effort they wont do them. 


So in the end we left with a very polarized game style. And by how it looks like now, it head towards whoever got the biggest offence is the king on the hill. And in a game where you can spend to enhance that offence, and there is no limits really.  


Poor Oberon, stuck with handle Balur and the becons on his own, but hey, that is how the cookie, or shall we say sapphire crumble.



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Tychi
18 September, 2016, 9:16 AM UTC
I agree with the OP, but Plarium won't see it that way unless they see $ signs in it
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roadstar Pitbull
18 September, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

The beacon ranking has been flawed since the beginning of the game. I'm sure my long ago post is the archives.


Is there an easy answer at this point,,no.

If the basic mechanics would have changed early on for ranking to a clan war ranking, what would the gameplay and map look like now??

There is no incentive (ok very little), for any clan to war another..

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Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
19 September, 2016, 10:52 AM UTC

I've seen different posts about Offense-Defense balance. 

Offenders say this game is for defenders, they have all those Defense boosts in Castles, in Beacons. No real opportunity to overwhelm Defense with current attack limits.

Defenders say Offense is much stronger for the same cost, the bank payout favours Offence, they have Joint attacks, etc.

From this point it looks like it's well-balanced. Of course if you play on one side, you can see all cons of your situation and all pros of your rival's situation. But in fact game balance is considered by several departments, it's analyzed and calculated. 

It's not accidental. And I really doubt our game balance will be changed in the near future. As soon as there are some real reasons for changes which can be proven mathematically, our devs will make their step.

Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
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Gadheras
19 September, 2016, 11:30 AM UTC
Alyona Kolomiitseva said:

I've seen different posts about Offense-Defense balance. 

Offenders say this game is for defenders, they have all those Defense boosts in Castles, in Beacons. No real opportunity to overwhelm Defense with current attack limits.

Defenders say Offense is much stronger for the same cost, the bank payout favours Offence, they have Joint attacks, etc.

From this point it looks like it's well-balanced. Of course if you play on one side, you can see all cons of your situation and all pros of your rival's situation. But in fact game balance is considered by several departments, it's analyzed and calculated. 

It's not accidental. And I really doubt our game balance will be changed in the near future. As soon as there are some real reasons for changes which can be proven mathematically, our devs will make their step.

When it start surface that a league get a paypay account for their members to send cash to so they can buy huge hammers. You know this game is just fubar right? There need to get a mechanic in place so you can't buy more than a set number of units a week. Or not able to buy more than a certain percentage worth of your current army size. I know Plarium want to make money but this is killing the game..
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