This topic is closed

Troop Build Efficiency Calculation

20 Replies
TLS
18 March, 2016, 10:52 AM UTC

Hi all, I was looking over the Wiki and I noticed that all the build efficiency calculations are done with base stats.  Since the base stats are no longer relevant to me (with agreements and grain reductions) I decided to recalculate with everything maxed out.  If someone is so inclined, I would be happy to have input on whether the calculations were done correctly as well as the conclusion of the most efficient army builds for resources and consumption (bottom of the spreadsheet).


Spreadsheet is here (with commenting turned on):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18LdYTlPeJcp7uUq0tFqm8_Uu2_G-sonF0HNc1U0TrpY/edit?usp=sharing

-added personalization

-added additional calculations

Archived versions

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pGxPxUt0d77Gsbi7x93rMGimQeo5JM5O8F2-xcrmaog/edit?usp=sharing

UTC +2:00
ashishjoseph22
18 March, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

Good work TLS, if your calaculations are correct( i havent calculated or checked)  then this spreadsheet might prove usefull for some comparisons and clear future guidelines.

I recommend four more additions-

1 {(Offense/Defense with bonus) / (build time modified)}= the info on how much offense we are producing every minute(higher the better).

2 {(Offense/Defense with bonus) / (grain consumption modified)}= the worth grain lost in terms of offense(higher the better).

3 {Carrying capacity X (speed of units / 60)}= the the quality of units in terms of resource bringing capacity, with weight given as-

          1 resource raided which took 1 minute to reach the target 1 mile away = 1 point

4 The ratio of (timber:bronze:grain) used to produce unit using 1000 grains as the base for ex. a javelineer's base ratio will be

   {5000(timber):2000(bronze):1000(grain)} and swordsmens {1500(timber):2500(bronze):1000(grain)} - see the base grain is always 1000.

This would give the player an estimate to his current resource balance value proabable use, and also how its best to utilise them in which units or what resource should i focus more on while spying cities or choosing emporia's


*******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

See there are more ways to exploit these stats, if you are really interested in moving ahead with your vision of this spreadsheet or graphical representaiton on wiki or something, a statistician cum mathematician would help you in achieveing the numbers and you  create custom spreadsheets like the positions spreadsheet for players. One spreadsheet like this would be helpful for unit comparison over all revelant aspects.

Keep up the good work

Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
TLS
18 March, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

Hi Ashishijoseph,


thank you for the input :)  

I incorporated points 1 & 2 at the end of the troop calculation column.  For 3 I would need to add the academy speed agreements which aren't currently on there, but can do this.  

Regarding the 4th point, would it be useful to know the relative ratio between resources?  I do not have all the agreements signed yet, but I would assume that once you pass a certain point, there are troops which you will never train anymore because there are more efficient ones (this is where I was going at least from the beginning, trying to figure out what the optimized troops to produce would be either for resources or for consumption).

I also changed the spreadsheet around so now it is more interactive.  To find you bonus, enter the agreements you have signed and the grain reduction you have achieved and the troops stats will update.  To use, save a copy in your Google Drive or download and use in Excel.


New Link:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18LdYTlPeJcp7uUq0tFqm8_Uu2_G-sonF0HNc1U0TrpY/edit?usp=sharing


UTC +2:00
morteeee
Moderator
19 March, 2016, 5:36 AM UTC

wow this is great! 


Thank you Archons! :D
History is written by the victors
UTC +1:00
ashishjoseph22
19 March, 2016, 7:31 AM UTC
You haven't considered the offense bonus this time, the updated bonus is not shown instead they are showing the base stats, or i cant modify the document because of comments only which don't make me eligible to write the agreement level. Anyway 

Yes, the third one would require academy speed incorporation too as one cant move down the levels without researching the speed of standard units to atleast 8 or 10. If you can add a custom option for each level(very long work, but worth) then it would be great, otherwise for now take the base levels of 8 and 10 in calculating the base speed, the raid information will give a general idea to players which all units you should keep as reserve for raids.



About the 4th point, advanced players always keep a mix of everything in their army from light to cavalry,the reasons-

1 Positions: every position has a different mix of unit types, suppose an offense position contains high mix of asvaran cavalry and immortals, you would'nt benefit sending cavalry units and phalanx units, it will only reduce your good troops unless you want to pay the bank fast, but this is would be a ridiculous way to do

2 Options: You always want to keep options in your army suppose you want to capture an emporia which has only petlasts, and when you look at your army and find only phalanx offense there you would be crying as petlast have higher defense against phalanx and heavy infantry, and suppose if it would have been the pvp, the enemy would have benefitted from you sending phalanx because of killing more worth units for your less worth units

3 Defense: You dont want to defend light infantry and heavy infantry storm with theurephoros, seriously, my whole theurephoros was wiped but gained less points even with my city defense bonus

4 Aesthetic value: It looks pleasing at the eye, too many different unit pictures inside your acropolis lol

Now the timber:bronze:grain ratio makes one realize what resources he is putting at stake while training a particular unit. for example comparing the units swordsmen and hoplite their ratio is 1500:2500:1000 and 667:1800:1000 respectively, now grain when you become advanced there are two situations either you are overflowing with grains always or your grains dont grow fast in respect to other resources. the above two units show a sharp contrast in their resource allocation the first one is timber and bronze oriented and the second one shows that you are going to require grains to build it.

You can always check and cross check your current resources with the table's data and plan accordingly.

Finally, the arguments i put here are much oriented towards my style,experience and needs, as more and more players give their reviews you would have to modify,add,delete your table and then only a complete useful table will arrive

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

And did you know what i found out today by looking at the chart-if two players simultaneously train agema horsemen and macedonian cavalry for the same time suppose x hours, at the end you would get same offense in both cities but the city which produced macedonian cavalry would spend 12.5% less resources on the unit and have a more speedy unit. Now what would you like to train archons, still you can find more arguments by comparing more stats.(The comparison was done on the stats for which the agreement hasnt been updated)

Thanks for the work TLS, this would help my last post on theurephoros vs trojan thorakites and sarissophoros vs spartan promachos





Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
ashishjoseph22
19 March, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

Sorry got to correct the above info, i didnt consider two factors so the efficiency in resources turns out to be 8.7% which is still quite good because you are getting a faster troop too.

And TLS you should keep the value of (offense/resource) to percentage values keeping upto to 2 decimal places as the current rounding off gives very unclear maths.
Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
ashishjoseph22
21 March, 2016, 6:48 AM UTC
TLS are you there?
Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
TLS
21 March, 2016, 7:58 AM UTC

Yep, sorry was gone over the weekend.


So, the spreadsheet is set up now to display base stats until you enter your personal boosts (on the first worksheet).  Once you enter these, the troop calculation will update to your personal situation.  To use though you would have to save a copy or download a copy from Drive.


For the offense/resource it is at 2 decimal places (rounded of course).  Which column is giving unclear results?


Ashishjoseph, would you like to collaborate on this?  It seems like you have some good input to give.  I can either give you permissions on the spreadsheet or you can fork a copy and we can pass the document link back and forth.  PM your email if you want to do it the first way.
UTC +2:00
ashishjoseph22
21 March, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

Oh OK

Regarding the case of rounding of two decimal places i meant first converting them to percentage value by multiplying the real number by 100 then rounding it of to two decimal places, for example the agema horseman's offense by resource written by you is 0.07 which equals to 7 percent of offense in terms of resouces required. but the actual value is not 7 percent, it is 6.92013016435309%, now this may seem an insignificant diffrence but the results vary when you do the maths, so 6.92 will i guess give lesser error, i am working on few more things on it no need to update now, we can make it better.

And yes i am interested in this project, i have sent you a message with the mail id

Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
TLS
22 March, 2016, 8:30 AM UTC

You are added.  Looking forward to your additions.


For the calculation, the extra step isn't needed, I just added an additional decimal place in the spreadsheet and the rounding is more precise.  If you want more precision, you can always go even farther back, but for ease of visually checking I didn't go farther than 3 places.  Any calculations though that are performed on the cell will include the exact number.
UTC +2:00
ashishjoseph22
23 March, 2016, 6:05 AM UTC
LOL a problem occured, i never focused on excel sheets in my school days, i can create programs in java but lol dont know how to apply operations in excel, i need to take a tutorial first
Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
Rob May
25 March, 2016, 10:51 PM UTC

I know you put work into it, but its waste of time....


There is much better spreadsheet out there for over year or two


I can't remember where I got it initially and it is probably no longer being developed, but hey I'm using their older version anyway and updated bits myself over the time.


You can probably still download copy from their facebook page, you don't have to be facebook member.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spartatroopcalculator/


only thing I updated in my version which was incorrect, were few high level elixirs and academy scrolls bonus % was incorrect in some units, everything else works brilliantly. Btw it does so much more than just calculate production, main focus is to track for Persians

UTC +0:00
ashishjoseph22
26 March, 2016, 6:27 AM UTC

Rob May said:


I know you put work into it, but its waste of time....


There is much better spreadsheet out there for over year or two


I can't remember where I got it initially and it is probably no longer being developed, but hey I'm using their older version anyway and updated bits myself over the time.


You can probably still download copy from their facebook page, you don't have to be facebook member.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/spartatroopcalculator/


only thing I updated in my version which was incorrect, were few high level elixirs and academy scrolls bonus % was incorrect in some units, everything else works brilliantly. Btw it does so much more than just calculate production, main focus is to track for Persians

Hmmm i see, we never spoke that this spreadsheet was to recreate something which is already created. And i am no fool to work on something that has already been created. Almost everybody using the forum knows of those spreadsheets.

That work on positions is brilliant and you dont need another spreadsheet to calculate your position theories, we are developing this sheet as the name goes  'troop building efficiency calculation'. The purpose for this to compare troops with their strengths and weakness in the same field,if you are too brilliant to tell whether if you build an agema horseman which takes 3hours 30 minutes and put swordsmen for building for the same time and come up instantly that the swordsmen gonna cost you almost half the agema for same offense, and at the same time tell how much good would they be both for raiding, then you dont need this spreadsheet at all, you are a genius in not getting fatigued.

We just want to make easier for people to understand the worth of one unit to another in as many aspects we can involve with numbers.

We need more and more suggestions and needs from others.


Hey TLS, I included the raid points column, looks a bit too dispersed, some are very high value others are low, i will think of a separate page for that in the future. A new sheet is also included, it shows the resource cost for different troops for same offense production for a given time(which is 3.5 hours that of an agema horseman). the orange colour troops all produce 1680 offense in 3.5 hours(boosts not included) and their resource consumption for that period.

The formulas for the second last column is what i created after copy pasting the values from the previous sheet(so the preciding formulas i think got inaccurate because of copy pasting), anyway i just wanted you to know the idea, i hope you can fix the formula problem hehehe.

We can show the resource values in three different chart, the last green units are all denarii which are can be included in a single chart because there is not much difference among them.

Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
Rob May
3 April, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

but that position spreadsheet has many tabs, one of which is unit production, which covers about 90% of your stuff :)


there you can see all that info and play with numbers but you can see important stuff as:

offense/defense per minute for each troop type

offense/defense  per resource cost


I know u added some extra graphs which will make it more visual, but for me personally it makes no difference


In my eyes its unnecessary work, but its your free time you spending it:)


that's being said, if people will use your spreadsheet or other one, doesn't matter, in both cases they optimize their building production, which is good thing for game:)


in the end its good that people have more options and difference resources they can use as calculators for this game

UTC +0:00
aryabhatta248
5 April, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

Hello this is ashishjoseph22 here, i deleted my account as am busy with my college studies plus football and chess team. I really wanted to hear the reply from TLS and you Rob May pop up again. 

LOL, you first say the thing is useless in your eyes then say its good for the game, and you tease me with sending smilies, first of all have guts to speak your heart out. I am really speaking abusive words against you in my mind.

Now to the point, you find this thing useless and 90% already worked through, except the graphs. Lets see how the spreadsheet are different- they have a 24 hour build stats compilation plus a custom one ---- We have raid capacity and points system plus a new table to compare common offense with resources. Rest is currently same

And now to reply to you, who has i think dosent understand about the scope of mathematics and is arguing with everyone to prove his point by creating a post on death inc 7. I will try my best to explain things


Whenever a research is done or a project/venture initiated, some basic values and methods(primary stuff) is always needed to work as premises. The scope and direction of the production tab shows things specific to its needs and we wanted(i personally) to improve more on that and increase its scope. So we first have to write down the primary stuff such as resources,speed And yes the offense ratio with resources is all primary.

So currently the primary base has been setup and you pop out of nowhere saying it is useless(I wonder why such claims arrive).

Now i want to ask you some questions, dont reply without answering them-

  1. You didnt reply to my first question 

                  "if you build an agema horseman which takes 3hours 30 minutes and put swordsmen for building for the same time and come up instantly that the swordsmen gonna cost you almost half the agema for same offense, and at the same time tell how much good would they be both for raiding, then you dont need this spreadsheet at all, you are a genius in not getting fatigued."

      2. We never said the work we did currently is the only thing which we will do, we would expand and increase so the troops become more comparable and you never know, with charts what all is possible. AND I also said that i dont waste time on things in which work has already been done. So actually the work didnt began and your commenting started.

      3. How do you suppose we can develop on the work of others, the position spreadsheet is work of someone else, we cant play with numbers and post a new one for others implying our name on it, we copy some give credit to the maker and improve on it.

      4. That spreadsheet isnt been updated from a while, i guess he must not been much interested on it(i dont know) so wouldnt it be nice we start a new one already, which focuses on troops efficiency in all perspectives only and not just one page in a spreadsheet?

 Listening to your negative words such as useless, waste of time it stops much of the work and is not appreciated in offices and at work.

I hope you will be quiet for sometime and as i am going away, i hope others will contribute and work towards its development, but i would be checking the forums once in a while though.
UTC +5:00
Rob May
5 April, 2016, 9:52 PM UTC

Hi, not sure who developed this new spreadsheet if its either of arybhatta since you are extremely protective of this sheet or TLS...


If you read my initial comment, I never used words as useless , but I did said that in my opinion its waste of time to make another spreadsheet, because there is already one out. It has nothing to do with your ability to make one.


It was not my intention to insult you or you guys, but first when I opened this topic I thought to myself, why people doing something what's been already made, so I shared that thought here.


And yes in my second comment I said its good for game, that people have these tools, which helps them improve efficiency of building troops.


Me posting in this topic will bump it up, more people will be aware of your spreadsheet, which help you.


No need to make comments about my mathematical skills and that I don't understand scope of mathematics. Your opinion is based on me commenting on diplomacy issues in other topic where I don't believe smaller coalition should join top coas. I feel my math skills are good, thank you.


Also before I used any spreadsheet, yes I did my calculations on calculator to find most efficient troops to build when I was starting this game vs 24 hour period, I would certainly not have time to create spreadsheet for this game myself from scratch.


Now i will provide you  with constructive feedback about your spreadsheet, as you as developer should not expect only positive one :), but also what is missing so you can improve upon it.


Feedback:

positives:

I like use of graphs and its nice and colorful.


What i'm missing there:

some overview on single page with everything would nice, so don't have to jump between tabs

also I couldn't find 24hours building production anywhere(maybe I overlooked it) which helps you see lots of different things.

you might want to consider adding elixir bonuses, since they are not same for every troop type as their level goes up, might show more accurate real world numbers for fighting.

same goes for dominion, I know its only static % boost, but people would see most accurate power of their units.


There are 3 main categories for people to consider depends on their needs to be called as most effective.

1.scenario, player wants to build most cost effective troops, ie most power for least amount of resources(that's covered, like denarii troops)

2. player wants most power per time, resources are irrelevant(also covered)

3. most resources output per troop to use as Persian fodder(not implemented) you can kind of use worst effective troop per resource cost, but I would prefer to have it visible in form of like this:
cartharians 263 900 resources cost per 24hours vs

agemas 189 361 per 24hours

if cost is broken down to all 3 resources types, then I can also see that majority of extra cost is extra grain, which is perfect.

reason of doing this method, if u have months of troops in queue, its better get that resources out quickly, so by training for example cartharians vs agemas, and after exchanging them to lets say agemas, you will end up with more agemas  than training them directly.


I found few errors with  few academy scrolls, in fairness other spreadsheet had them as well, I fixed them. if you like I can share them, many I confirmed with my own academy. but generally speaking troops are 12% faster to built, except roman troops which are 15% faster. at least for those I have upgraded to max.


Conclusion:

At this time of writing that older spreadsheet has more functionality regarding troop production and also have Persian section, so I don't have to use 2 separated spreadsheets.

It might be easier to reuse older spreadsheet and credit original author and improve it, but

if you stick by developing your own, I would be happy to use it if its became much better than older one am using. And best of luck and patience with development:)


btw screenshot:

http://prntscr.com/aolci2





 

UTC +0:00
aryabhatta248
6 April, 2016, 8:09 AM UTC

Hahaha, your posting is not the only way we can bump it up, we can just write a post when it is updated and this topic would come at top,

The sheet was developed by TLS and i was just including my inputs in it, but i have now got admin rights of that spreadsheet, which TLS gave.

I am protective of this sheet as i spend my time to it, why should i let it be made a mockery of. And you never said the word useless but, unnecessary work, waste of time, a better spreadsheet already available, your free time you are spending. It all somehow makes a common headline the work is useless.

And actually your real problem you speaked out yourself 


Rob May said:

If you read my initial comment, I never used words as useless , but I did said that in my opinion its waste of time to make another spreadsheet, because there is already one out. It has nothing to do with your ability to make one.

You ask why to work on something which is already there, but dont ask is there something more to it coming, instead of promoting a new thing which aims more to develop you say it should'nt develop because something similar like this is already developed(The works and aim are different if you have eyes to see, and now dont speak the blabber that you were saying that you wanted to promote this sheet,   from the begining and by this post you are saying that this work is unnescesary). And my comment on the scope of mathematics, i am not myself a student of maths, but looking at your gesture that the spreadsheet already there is there and we are just wasting our time because you think more cant be done now, this shows how little you see about the scope of numbers. And you havent even answered all the questions before, you just answered the first one(which shows you had to calculate a lot and couldnt come at it with ease) and spoke something in the conclusion(i dont think it might be good because that spreadsheet is for positions and this one solely for troop comparison). The second point answer was what i truly wanted to hear.


And earlier if you read carefully i said that they(means the position spreadsheet) has got 24 hour build time stats compilation plus a custom one.

And we(our spreadsheet) have raid capacity and points system plus a new table to compare common offense with resources.

The good thing i appreciate is the feedback post, this is what is required. And dont be hesitant to say positive and negative points as i myself was giving the pros and cons before. These things make a project grow. Good.

About dominion and elixir, well TLS knows that work, better he do it, i never worked much on spreadsheets, that we will surely do. thanks

And everything going on a single page is not possible, and what do you mean by the overview i didnt understand.

Thinking on the 24 hour build too, maybe we put some charts on the 24 hour format.

1 The cost effective chart you say has to come with considering another factor, as you see everyone knows that javelineers cost the less, so tell me which cost effective troops you would like to produce considering what quality in your mind.

2 Actually the most you can produce with base stats at no upgrade level is 8 offense per minute and there are many troops who do it. When the agreements are updated its still the same ( you can cross check and let me know if its true) So the table in the tab sheet 5 shows the list of units who produce same offense per minute, you can see many who fit into the 8 per minute category(base stats) and the distinction we provided there was resources. So only assuming maximum offense or defense per minute dosent give a ranking of troops from top to bottom.

3 Point, we can make a new table for most resources consumed and for least time period, the chart will rank the units accordingly and tell what's good for positions if you want to fill up the bank fast.


I wont be working on this sheet for maybe i guess months, because i used to spend too much time on this game, that is why became user deleted, and dont know when will i get time to login again, i hope TLS continues to do the rest. But will be checking forums

UTC +5:00
morteeee
Moderator
6 April, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC
once again Archons there is some seriously hard work being put into this, I for one am impressed! 
History is written by the victors
UTC +1:00
aryabhatta248
7 April, 2016, 9:29 AM UTC
Morteee again to the rescue, thanks
UTC +5:00
sitka
7 April, 2016, 7:35 PM UTC

Hi, this was very usefull for knowing in what to invest.



But can someone give actually an overall guidance in:

How to increase your recourses and develop the agreements in the most efficient way? To teach one not to spend the money and recourses in a waisted manner?


Thanks, Archons !
UTC +2:00
1659333 users registered; 33180 topics; 251667 posts; our newest member:Lady Vix'n