Throne: battle mechanics 1.0 (seeking volunteers to validate data and enter additional data points)

6 Replies
User
19 March, 2019, 5:39 AM UTC

Hello, I am looking for volunteers to test and to contribute by adding missing data points to the final easily manageable hypothetical battle guide.


I have a relatively working excel spreadsheet that based on numerous battle reports was relatively accurate.


1. This is the core of the battle hypothetical calculations, where we have a fluctuating scale of a variable coefficient, depending on whether the defending army is 100 to 153% larger than the attacking army (for which ratio from chapter 4 is applied).

Data is not 100% accurate because certain values were rounded due to missing data points.

Basically, if your defending army is 10 % larger than the attackers = on defense instead of default 80% you lose only 66% and so on till you reach 153% of what the attacker has - in which case you will loose only 52% of ur troops instead of 80%


2. This is the health pool of default t1-t6 troops without yet any additional data points.




It is relatively accurate on default values. I need a lot more data to be entered. If you would like to be a volunteer text either here or in PM


3. This is a hypothetical calculator derived from numerous battle reports - needs testing.
Obviously needs a lot of work, but right now it works relatively accurate on default values.

For example:


A attacks B with 100 t6, B defends with 170 t6. The ratio here is 1 : 1,7 which is larger than 1:1,53 => therefore the fluctuating coefficient applies to decrease the attack in 48%, in other words, the attack becomes multiplied by max coefficient - 0.52.

Let's calculate:

1 ... attack value of 1 t6 by default is 433

2 ... because ratio is higher than 1:1,53 no calculations of a coefficient aren't needed and default max 0.52 multiplier applies to the attack power.

3.... 433*0.52 = 225.16

4.... then we multiply the result 225.16 by the number of troops = in this hypo we have 100, so 225.16*100 = 22516 - this is the final attack power.


5.... then we look at the health pool of the troops being attacked (defender's stats). In our hypo it is a t6 troop which has 433 health and 433 defense. To fit in our calculations, we need to use the formula health * (defense/100),  433 * (433/100) = 433 * 4,33 = 1874.89


6.... final step: we divide the total attack power from step 4.  22516 by 1874.89 which equals 12.015 ~ 12 troops 


IF these calculations are correct, then on default without boosts or other modifiers, when you take 100 t6 and attack 170 of t6, the defender will lose = 12 troops out of his 170.

Because attacker went against a full 153% larger enemy - he suffers from a max coefficient 0.52 in his attack power by default.


======

what makes it a lot more difficult is to calculate the multiplier when the defending army is no more than 150% larger than the attacker.


In short, if you have exact army 100% v 100% or 1 v 1 as your opponent both of you lose 80% of troops.

If you have 125%, in other words its 1v 1.25 - the attacker gets a significant debuff on his attack.

(If we look at the data points in the chart - the corresponding value to 25% extra defenders is 0.61) If this was to work perfectly, then in a case 1 v 1,25, attacker will have a multiplier 0.61 applied to his attack power. However, for reasons yet unknown the coefficient is fluctuating, so exact data points have not been determined.

If you have 153%, in other words its 1 v 1.53 - the attacker gets a max debuff on his attack of 0.52.


====


4. Ratio used in determining against which opponent's troops will the default fluctuating coefficient be applied. - needs additional testing with battle reports.



Again, if you would like to have a complete battle guide, please text me here or in PM and I will give you access to the spreadsheet to start entering additional data points, so we will have a wonderful and easily manageable and relatively accurate battle mechanics guide.



King Atlant
UTC +0:00
1
WWO
User
25 March, 2019, 7:16 AM UTC

Thanks for that youtube link Troops Secrets Revisited (by Nicky Poo aka Russian Moster)- it took several viewings to follow it.

Just remember, he's talking about Vikings, and although some factors are the same or merely renamed, not all are - so your thread here will be most valuable to confirm / correct. (Confirmations will likely be consistent, while correction will need closer scrutiny.)

Overall takeaway of all of this is: Biggest troops wins, and be, say, 2x times larger, for least impact upon yourself. Bearing in mind it takes 9 t1's to equal 1 t6. [Not just 2x larger on the first attack, but 2x larger on each subsequent attack as they relentlessly pound you.]
- they may send many (non-raid) marches at you - at least not all will contain their hero and/or inquisitor.


To this end, the critical number is what is the largest troop that can be sent against you? [If being raided, your pain will likely not be worth bearing, so just shield for a moment and get on with your day. Raids will last for up to 8h for assembly (you'll probably see many tracks to the organizer.), plus the time it takes for them to reach you. If you've shielded or ported before they arrive, no harm to you. Doesn't mean they haven't sequenced out multiple raid attacks. Remember you get bonuses for being behind your town walls - which don't apply in the ES or Dominion.]


If marches max out at 1.07M, 1.6M with 150% bonus, 2x means having about 3.2M to hand. 29M if you have t1's and they have t6's. So keep this many at home, folks, while you send the rest out to play. Problematic: Keep hero and inquistor at home for defense, or send them out for greater impact.
- if you port next to your victim, there's a fair chance that any attacker won't be able to hit you while your troops are away, attack / return being so quick. So you may not need to choose to send or not - they'll just be inside at the time of battle. If you keep no troops at home while attacking, anyone lucky enough to get you in this situation will find no troops at home to be killed. YMMV.

- the above is for the biggest army wins, aspect.


Youtube ratio:

  • t1 - 1.000
  • t2 - 2.197
  • t3 - 3.602
  • t4 - 5.196
  • t5 - 7.002
  • t6 - 9.010

Troops max sizes (*incomplete*):

  • 400,000 L31 Council Hall
  • +2% Citadel: March Headcount I
  • +0.4% Citadel: March Headcount II
  • +0.4% Citadel: March Headcount III
  • +50% Hero Studies: March Headcount I
  • +50% Tier VI: March Headcount II
  • +10% Inquisitor Studies: March Headcount With the Inquisitor
  • +30% Inquisitor Doctrines: March Headcount I & II
  • +25% VIP L30: March Headcount

Calc = Council Hall march size + % x Council Hall march size ...
e.g. 400k + 2% of 400k + 0.4% of 400k + ... + 25% of 400k = 1,071,200
- March = a. max = a + (2%+.4%+.4%+50%+50%+10%+30%+25%)a
- when all sizes maxed out, this max number will be rather higher. e.g. Citadel level 10.

Confirm: Palace / Statistics / Army / General / Maximum number of warriors in one troop.


*Citadel: March Headcount's will be larger as the Citadel rises and studies done. Here, L2 Citadel, 5/1/1 for I/II/III.
[Assumption: All bonuses apply everywhere - you do not have to be within the citadel valley to receive them.]
- confirm: Citadel / Town Hall / Statistics / Army / Maximum number of warriors in one troop

*Raid and Reinforcement Headcounts: Leaving aside for some other thread. e.g. Citadel Raid Troop / Reinforcement Troops Headcount.


Youtube link notes biggest army wins. Full stop. i.e. At tie (e.g. both sides lose 80%), attacker gets no RSS. One more troop would have gotten the attacker RSS.


Troop Power (aka 'army size' for 'biggest army wins' purposes) = sqrt(Attack*Defense*Health).
- Health is called Life in Vikings.
- Attack / Defense / Health numbers seen in troop characteristics.


EVERYTHING ELSE merely determines how much damage was done. YOU WANT TO HAVE THE BIGGEST ARMY!
- damage maxes out at 48% or 52% (or something), thus the point of Atlant's post here - how much is enough to inflict max damage. (Many marches sent with just enough troops = more loot than fewer marches with excess troops.) Consider - 18 multi-M marches sent in a row to hit and loot an enemy.
- there are so many factors involved, I've just used 2x for convenience. It is not based on fact.So many skills and boosts and bonuses, offense / defense, reduce enemy health / defense / offense, jewels, gear, ...

- Reduced Enemy Offense / Health / Defense most important / largest impact - so don't forget to apply those boosts before going into battle. Optimally, 50% offense means half as many deaths, while 50% of Health and Defense means 25% more kills. In a perfect and simplistic world.
- you likely have these skills set in your battle profiles, but what happens when you get hit while yielding? Consider using these skills in your non-battle profiles as well. Just in case.


Health Pool (his term, for lack of a better one) consists of Health and Defense, per troop characteristics.
Health Pool = Health * (Defense/100)
- aka Defense % of Health. Defense % x Health.


Army with less troops sees their attack diminished
- there is a saturation point before which the attacker will do progressively less damage.
- at and beyond that saturation point, the attacker will lose the least. Thus no point in sending more troops than you have to, and the reason for this, Atlant's thread.
- max. loss 48%
- Attacker loss = troop power / health pool.

Applies to bonuses too = (Attack + %Attack) / ( (Health + %Health) / ((Defense + %Defense) / 100 ) )

- thus, Health more impactful than Defense. Finish Reduced Enemy Health / Defense / Offense, {troop} Health / Defense / Offense, Army Health / Defense / Offense, in order. Preserve troops to fight another day - or the next attack you're immediately going to launch!


It all gets worse when you have multiple troop types at different levels. e.g. t1 and t3, and 50% effectiveness of Siege against Spear, and so on.


** This all assume Vikings formulae -exactly- transfer to KaW.


Atlаnt said:

> ...coefficient, depending on whether the defending army is 100 to 153% larger than the attacking army (for which ratio from chapter 4 is applied).


Chapter 4?


> Basically, if your defending army is 10 % larger than the attackers = on defense instead of default 80% you lose only 66% and so on till you reach 153% of what the attacker has - in which case you will loose only 52% of ur [sic] troops instead of 80%


> 2. This is the health pool of default t1-t6 troops without yet any additional data points.


Confirmed via https://throne.help/en/resources/troopstraps/


> Obviously needs a lot of work, but right now it works relatively accurate on default values


And that will be the problem - you will never have default values.


e.g. People will need to also enter their current number of troops and levels, AND their current Attack / Defense / Health levels.
- and you will have to figure out % troop type applied against enemy equivalent, any extra applied to other defenders in what %'s, and vice versa.


However, going through this exercise as you are is very, very, insightful and useful.


e.g. From the above, we know that march size matters more than anything else, and attack values matter more than health values which matter more than defense values.  Oops ... that may be backwards ... denominator more important than numerator for final result. And larger health makes larger denominator than larger defense.


Finding out which matters most, when will be useful. As resources and time are scarce, knowing which to do first for optimal results is a puzzle.


A good step might be having calculators that match the results of Palace / Statistics / Army / Warriors.


e.g. Knowing all the factors making up 'Army offense' helps us know which to work on first for the greatest impact.
(Items aren't listed there until you have them. The new player won't have any, and will have no idea without this as to which will provide the greatest result soonest.)

- and knowing all of the factors above helps us to know which area to focus on when for the greatest impact for the rss / boosts / gold spent.

UTC -5:00
1
User
10 April, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

I have found the 50/25 +1/-2 and -1/+2 have been very accurate.


Attacker hits first. 1 spear, 2 calv, 3 ranged, 4 knights, 5 siege.


Attacker has 1000 1t1 and defender has 1000 2t1.

Attacker 1t1 gain +50% atk/def/health, against defenders 2t1.

If attacker kills 80% troops, the damage stops killi g troops and the battle wins.


Attackers total attack of the 1t1 goes against defenders 2t1, and is deducted in points one troop at a time. if 100 defence, the 150 attack from 1t1 will deducted 100 atk, passing 50 attack on to the defence. 50 defence is left for next troop to drop 50 atk pwr due to previous troop. it negates 100 atk power due to next defence of the next troop passing the 100 defence onto the next troop to deal 150 atk. so on and so forth.


sorry, trying to explain it right....


total atk power of attacker is deducted by total def and hp of each troop one by one. 


same thing for defence, but with the 20% or more troops that survived.


edit: one more thing... the +% on anything is added to base stat. like i was at 14 seconds per stamina, now im at 10.5 to 11 seconds per stamina for a 327 stamina regen. basic stats of the game, are what make it hard to figure out

UTC +7:00
0
WWO
User
10 April, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

Torasu said:


I have found the 50/25 +1/-2 and -1/+2 have been very accurate.


Attacker hits first. 1 spear, 2 calv, 3 ranged, 4 knights, 5 siege.


Attacker has 1000 1t1 and defender has 1000 2t1.

Attacker 1t1 gain +50% atk/def/health, against defenders 2t1.

If attacker kills 80% troops, the damage stops killi g troops and the battle wins.


Attackers total attack of the 1t1 goes against defenders 2t1, and is deducted in points one troop at a time. if 100 defence, the 150 attack from 1t1 will deducted 100 atk, passing 50 attack on to the defence. 50 defence is left for next troop to drop 50 atk pwr due to previous troop. it negates 100 atk power due to next defence of the next troop passing the 100 defence onto the next troop to deal 150 atk. so on and so forth.


sorry, trying to explain it right....


total atk power of attacker is deducted by total def and hp of each troop one by one. 


same thing for defence, but with the 20% or more troops that survived.


edit: one more thing... the +% on anything is added to base stat. like i was at 14 seconds per stamina, now im at 10.5 to 11 seconds per stamina for a 327 stamina regen. basic stats of the game, are what make it hard to figure out

> 50/25 +1/-2 and -1/+2

?

> 1t1 ? 2t1 ?


Ah.


> Attacker hits first. 1 spear, 2 calv, 3 ranged, 4 knights, 5 siege.
> Attacker has 1000 1t1 and defender has 1000 2t1.


So, attacker has 1,000 t1spear, defender has 1,000 t1cav ?


> If attacker kills 80% troops, the damage stops killi g troops and the battle wins.

Not following that. "damage stops killing troops"?

If the attacker kills 80% of the defenders, attacker wins, and ??? no further damage to attacker troop occurs?


> Attackers total attack of the 1t1 goes against defenders 2t1,

1,000 spear against 1,000 cav.

> and is deducted in points one troop at a time.

?

> if 100 defence

100 from troop defense characteristics?

>  the 150 attack from 1t1

150 from troop offense characteristics?

> will deducted 100 atk, passing 50 attack on to the defence.

100 attack negates 100 defense, leaving 50 attack spare.

> 50 defence is left for next troop to drop 50 atk pwr due to previous troop.

Next troop? Power?

> it negates 100 atk power due to next defence of the next troop passing the 100 defence onto the next troop to deal 150 atk. so on and so forth.


Sorry, I am just not following this. The abbreviations aren't helping. Maybe write a google doc, then people can point translate.google.com at it?

UTC -5:00
0
User
11 April, 2019, 1:19 AM UTC

WWO said:


Torasu said:


I have found the 50/25 +1/-2 and -1/+2 have been very accurate.


Attacker hits first. 1 spear, 2 calv, 3 ranged, 4 knights, 5 siege.


Attacker has 1000 1t1 and defender has 1000 2t1.

Attacker 1t1 gain +50% atk/def/health, against defenders 2t1.

If attacker kills 80% troops, the damage stops killi g troops and the battle wins.


Attackers total attack of the 1t1 goes against defenders 2t1, and is deducted in points one troop at a time. if 100 defence, the 150 attack from 1t1 will deducted 100 atk, passing 50 attack on to the defence. 50 defence is left for next troop to drop 50 atk pwr due to previous troop. it negates 100 atk power due to next defence of the next troop passing the 100 defence onto the next troop to deal 150 atk. so on and so forth.


sorry, trying to explain it right....


total atk power of attacker is deducted by total def and hp of each troop one by one. 


same thing for defence, but with the 20% or more troops that survived.


edit: one more thing... the +% on anything is added to base stat. like i was at 14 seconds per stamina, now im at 10.5 to 11 seconds per stamina for a 327 stamina regen. basic stats of the game, are what make it hard to figure out

> 50/25 +1/-2 and -1/+2

?

> 1t1 ? 2t1 ?


Ah.


> Attacker hits first. 1 spear, 2 calv, 3 ranged, 4 knights, 5 siege.
> Attacker has 1000 1t1 and defender has 1000 2t1.


So, attacker has 1,000 t1spear, defender has 1,000 t1cav ?


> If attacker kills 80% troops, the damage stops killi g troops and the battle wins.

Not following that. "damage stops killing troops"?

If the attacker kills 80% of the defenders, attacker wins, and ??? no further damage to attacker troop occurs?


> Attackers total attack of the 1t1 goes against defenders 2t1,

1,000 spear against 1,000 cav.

> and is deducted in points one troop at a time.

?

> if 100 defence

100 from troop defense characteristics?

>  the 150 attack from 1t1

150 from troop offense characteristics?

> will deducted 100 atk, passing 50 attack on to the defence.

100 attack negates 100 defense, leaving 50 attack spare.

> 50 defence is left for next troop to drop 50 atk pwr due to previous troop.

Next troop? Power?

> it negates 100 atk power due to next defence of the next troop passing the 100 defence onto the next troop to deal 150 atk. so on and so forth.


Sorry, I am just not following this. The abbreviations aren't helping. Maybe write a google doc, then people can point translate.google.com at it?

Sorry my apologies. If you have 100x no study 1t1 (spear t1) attacking a tile with the defender holding 100x 2t1 (calv t1), then all you spear stats gain +50%. making 100x 150 atk, 150 def, 150 health. defending 2t1 have 100 of each stat. that makes for 150x100=15,000 total of each atk/def/hp for 100x1t1 and the enemy has 100x100=10,000 total stat of atk/def/hp for 100x2t1. each defending troop has 100 def, and 100 hp.


1st 2t1 def and hp totals 200. first 1t1 has 150 atk. 150atk-100def=50atk left to deduct from. the 100hp, leaving 50def left. 15,000 total attack has been reduced to 14,850. 14,700 after 50 more atk is applied to the defending 1st 2t1 and the 100 left over from the second troop deals the left over 100 damage to the defending 3rd 2t1 def. the 3rd 1t1 applies 100 of its 150 atk to the 3rd 2t1 hp, moving 50 atk to the 4th 2t1 def. so on and so forth.


Attacker strikes first. once 80% of troops have been killed by the attacler, the attaclers turn finishes and the battle has been won. the defender troops deal damage to attacker troops in same order. 


if the attacker did not achieve 80% kill count, the defender will win, i think only if it has a higher kill count, but it may win if 79% kill count happens cause it was not an auto win? i dunno. hard to verify.


yes. you can not zero someone in one hit. atleast not that i have seen. at all times 20% will be left alive, unless that 20% is less than 1.


+50% handicap first then +25% handicap. 

1t1 has +1 (+50%) to calv (3t1) and -2 (+25%) to knights (4t1). 4t1(+25%)1t1(+50%)2t1. +1/-2. 

negative handicaps are reversed -1/+2. 

1t1 has -1 (-50%) to siege (5t1) and +2 (-25%) to ranged (3t1).


5t1(-50%)1t1(-25%)3t1.


hence +1/-2 and -1/+2.


5t1 = siege t1. 

3t3 = ranged t3.

UTC +7:00
0
WWO
User
11 April, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

Please don't make me re-read these intricate details then try to walk it back to the original questions. Please just quote the bits you are replying to, with a yes, no, otherwise, noted.

> 1t1 ? 2t1 ?

Ah.

> Attacker hits first. 1 spear, 2 calv, 3 ranged, 4 knights, 5 siege.

> Attacker has 1000 1t1 and defender has 1000 2t1.

So, attacker has 1,000 t1spear, defender has 1,000 t1cav ?

> 1t1 (spear t1)

So it would seem this is correct. The # before 't' is the corresponding troop type above.

> 100x no study

100x what?

> attacking a tile

... OK, a tile, so as to eliminate all the other bits and bonuses to keep apples with apples.

>  then all you spear stats gain +50%

Where is this +50% coming from?


You were talking 1,000 attackers and defenders earlier. Are you now talking 100 instead, with '100x'?


hp = Health Points here, not hit points?


... sorry. I give up. I cannot follow the acronyms and abbreviations and density to understand what you are saying.
UTC -5:00
0
User
12 April, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

Apologies, im on a cheap phone and it is difficult to scroll.


yes you are correct on all your assumptions in second post...


you can do 100 troops or 1000 troops, up to you. but yes, a basic city with no studies.


the +50% is a handicap. +25% is the secondary positive handicap.


spear get +50% atk/def/hp against calv... +1/-2. using the troop numbers like i do... 1t1, 2t1, 3t1, 4t1, 5t1, 61t1. 

spearmen are 1. calv are 2. ranged are 3. knights are 4. siege are 5. scouts are 6. also in game they go from left to right in that order as well.


+1/-2 and -1/+2 refers to the bonus troops obtain when facing their counterparts. there is only +1/-2, but -1/+2 refers to whichtroops you need to avoid, as they get +50% and +25% stats against you... its in the how to play guide, in the troops section.


using base stats with the handicap percentages, and the understanding that the attacler kills up to 80% of defenders troops before defender an kill any attacker troops... you can understand the flow of units killed in a battle report, and give a good synopsis of hoe the battle actually took place.


which i gather, is what this thread is all about. understanding battle mechanics. 


thats easy. 


attacker gets first strike. handicaps and boosts are all applied. troop damage flow happens. if 80% defending troops are killed, attacler wins. if attacker gets less than 80% kills and loses more than defender, defender wins.


now understand the math behind it and youre good. btw, lots of troops have dramatically more defence than health. so def is better used for those types of troops.


o7

UTC +7:00
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