The ultimate guide for PVP

12 Replies
User
29 December, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

Hello everybody,

In this topic, we will be interested in the operation of Player Versus Player (PVP), and how to identify the battles that are interesting to fight.




We will see that in pvp, almost all the units have their utility. The only units that are not interesting in pvp are the four units of the army of shadows: the huntress, the pathfinder, the reaver and the chimera. All other units have utility in pvp, even infantry and cavalry units. I know that pathfinders are sometimes used in pvp, but it's a foolishness for me.

I advise you to start pvp after getting in the BattleGrounds all the class IV hero equipments.







I. How does the pvp work ?

I know that the formulas used by Plarium are secret and complex.

It seems to me that there are two important characteristics that we can guess:

 - the proportionality between the combat points and the losses ;

 - the importance of the outcome of the fight.


First, it seems to me that there is a proportionality between the combat points and the losses. What does that mean ? Let's take an example. Imagine a fight between player A and player B. Player A has an offensive army of 200,000 points which he sends against player B who has a defensive army of 100,000 points. You can see the result of such a fight on the following picture:






The attacker has twice as many points as the defender.

The striker loses 43/120 = 35,8% of his units.

The defender loses 48/70 = 68,6% of his units.

The defender loses approximately 2 times more units than the attacker. And the defender has 2 times less points than the attacker. That is what we will call in this topic "proportionality between combat points and losses" (I know that this proportionality is not perfect).



The second characteristic is the importance of the outcome of the fight.

Let's compare the two following fights:









In the first picture, the attacker loses the fight, and loses 30/59 = 50,8% of his units.

In the second picture, the attacker wins the fight, and loses 34/60 = 56,7% of his units.

I know it's strange (since the losses are greater in case of victory), but that's how it works. The images are not faked. I guess this mechanism has been put in place to reduce the risk of overpow.

Then, as we can not know the bonuses of enemy units, we are not able to precisely predict the outcome of a fight. Let's just remember that victory or defeat plays a role in the balance sheet of a fight. That is what we will call in this topic "the importance of the outcome of the fight".







II. Which fights to choose to engage ?

In this part and in the continuation of the topic, we will consider that your bonuses and those of your opponent are identical. This will allow us to greatly simplify the calculations. If you see that your opponent is of high level, and / or he has good hero equipments, you will need to estimate his bonuses, and to take them into account in the calculations.





We will first look at the pvp, from the point of view of the attacker.


A. Espionage.

The first phase is espionage. Avoid attacking players (or leagues) of too high level, you would lose your spies for nothing. Look for players (and leagues) of your level or lower level.


B. Estimation.

The second phase is the bonus estimation phase of your opponent's units. Look at the hero equipment of the opponent, the level of his castle, and his level of wisdom. These three parameters are good indicators.


C. Choice.

The third phase is the phase of choice. You are the attacker, it is you who engage the fight ; and you want the fight to be to your advantage. There are two possibilities for this:


 - either you have a superiority in terms of power #FirstTypeOfAttack : your army is 20 times more powerful than your opponent's, and you will have 20 times less losses than your opponent. This situation will generally occur when your opponent has a weak army of infantry and cavalry units, and you have a powerful army of dragons and necromancers. This situation is simple to understand, and easy to benefit. Here is an example:




 - either you are inferior in terms of unit value (which is a good point for you) #SecondTypeOfAttack. This situation will generally occur when your opponent has a small army made up of occult and bestiary units, and you have a large army made up of infantry and cavalry units. In this case, your units are approximately 6 times less powerful than those of your opponent. Your units must be at least 5 to 6 times more numerous than your opponent's. So, the power of the two armies is relatively equivalent (and may even be a bit unfavorable).

The power of the two armies is relatively equivalent, but the cost for you will be less, because the ratio [ power points / cost ] is lower for infantry and cavalry units.

Note that you will also benefit from the weak defense of the Griffins against the infantry and cavalry units.

The situation will therefore be advantageous for you.


To understand that at best, here is a table with the ratios between attack points and unit costs:



How to read this table ?

This table indicates that during a fight between your offensive infantry units, and bestiary defensive units of your opponent, your units would be on average 8 times less powerful, and 18 times less expensive than your opponent's units.

That means that at equal losses, the cost would be (1/8) / (1/18) = 2.3 times less important for you.

The gray area is the area where you want to be as an attacker.

You can now predict the losses of resources that you inflict on the adversary, and the ones you suffer. This will allow you to optimize the tournament and experience points you will reap.





We will now take a look at pvp from the defender's point of view.

From the point of view of the defender, things are different because we do not know in advance which units we are going to face. We will have to defend ourselves against the two types of attack seen previously.

It will be necessary that there are enough griffons and golems to avoid being overpowed. And there must be enough dwarfs and barbarians to avoid being beaten by units of low value (infantry and cavalry units).







III. The different types of battles.


A. Fortress battles.

We will take the example of a battle against a fortress of level 0. This example will serve as a reference for this whole 3rd part. Against a fortress of level 0, the force limit is 100,000 units. This means that 100,000 units of infantry, 50,000 cavalry units, 33,333 occult units or 25,000 bestiary units can be sent at a time.

We will take the point of view of the defenders.





First of all, we will see how to defend ourselves against the first type of attack. For that, we will ask ourselves the question: "What is the maximum attack likely to be launched against our fortress ?". The most important attack that can be launched against us is an attack of 25,000 dragons. How many points does it correspond to ?


The maximum bonus for a dragon is:

     +70% thanks to hero equipment ;

     +70% thanks to the lost arts ;

     +10% thanks to the crystals ;

     +20% thanks to the levels of wisdom ;

     +5% thanks to league achievements ;

     +20% thanks to league fortress knowledge bonus ;

     +30% thanks to league effects (we will not count this one) ;

     +10% (+7% that we will not count either) thanks to the paragon bonuses ;

     +10% thanks to the the castle skin ;

     +50% thanks to the 7-day boost at $10 ;

     +40% thanks to the unity improvement ;

     +20% thanks to buildings (mines and townhouses)

That's a total of 70+70+10+20+5+20+10+10+50+40+20 = 325%.


1680 + 325% = 7140 attack points for each dragon


With 1162 legendary units and 23257 dragons, this makes a total of:

1162*(4000+22000) (+35%) + 23257*7140 = 207,000,000 offensive points


For our fortress to resist assaults for sure, we therefore need 207,000,000 defensive points in bestiary.


If you reach such an amount, then you should be protected from the first type of attack.



The maximum bonus for a griffin is:

     +70% thanks to hero equipment ;

     +70% thanks to the lost arts ;

     +50% thanks to the crystals ;

     +20% thanks to the levels of wisdom ;

     +5% thanks to league achievements ;

     +20% thanks to league fortress knowledge bonus ;

     +10% thanks to the paragon bonuses ;

     +10% thanks to the the castle skin ;

     +40% thanks to the unity improvement ;

     +20% thanks to buildings (mines and townhouses) ;

     +10% thanks to the relics.

That's a total of 70+70+50+20+5+20+10+10+40+20+10 = 325%.


850 + 325% = 3612 defensive points for each griffin


For our fortress to resist attacks of the first type, we therefore need  207,000,000 / 3612 = 57,265 griffins.





We will now see how to defend ourselves against the second type of attack.

The goal here will be to surpass low value units (infantry / cavalry) that would attack our fortress. With low value units, the most important attack that can be launched against us is an attack of 50,000 great lords.


With all the bonuses, a great lord has 360 + 325% = 1530 attack points for each great lord.


With 1851 legendary units and 46298 great lords, this makes a total of:

1851*(1000+6250) (+40%) + 46298*1530 = 89,000,000 offensive points

We will consider that we want to be 5 times more powerful than this army. So we'll need 445,000,000 defensive points in cavalry.


With all the bonuses, a barbarian has 170 + 325% = 722 defensive points for each barbarian.


For our fortress to surpass attacks of the second type, we therefore need  445,000,000 / 722 = 616,000 barbarians.



You are now able to defend effectively and with certainty your level 0 fortress.

Note that the force limit for a level 20 fortress is 500,000 units. This means that you should reach an amount of 1 billion defensive points in bestiary, and an amount of 2,2 billion defensive points in cavalry.



B. Raids.

For raids, the operation is identical, but the force limit is 250,000. So you have to multiply by 2.5, which gives:

 - 57265 * 2.5 = 143,200 griffins

 - 616000 * 2.5 = 1,540,000 barbarians



C. Hamlets.

The limit is the same as for raids.

You must send 143,200 griffins and 1,540,000 barbarians to be safe.



D. Beacons.

For beacons, there is no limit, so you can never be sure of being safe.







IV. Conclusion.

In conclusion, the pvp is something dangerous, and I advise you to accumulate many units before doing pvp. At every moment, you risk getting overwhelmed and losing all your units, so be careful ! The pvp is also something very pleasing to play, so have fun. I did not talk much about espionage battles, because it's something secondary for me (since the opponent can know the units you have, sending a small troop, and watching your losses).

This guide helps you to optimize your battles, but it poorly take into account the social aspects of the game. To play even better, I advise you to read the guide about social intelligence.





I hope you enjoyed this guide. If you have a question, feel free to contact me via PM.

Your comments are welcome,

Good bye.

I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
UTC +1:00
3
User
3 January, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

Can I make a suggestion. Condense the guides, very few people will read that length of post.

Secondly before writing a guide become an expert in the field. The very first thing to understand about PvP is that there are raid mechanics and siege mechanics and which type of fights use which mechanics. They yield completely different results.

Raid mechanics always tend to a result where the attacker and defender lose the same power of troops.

Siege mechanics become more and more skewed as one side overpowers the other, to the point where it's possible to kill quite large amounts of troops taking next to no losses. This is why people coined up massive league strikes.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
UTC +0:00
1
User
3 January, 2018, 7:35 AM UTC

djmoody said:


The very first thing to understand about PvP is that there are raid mechanics and siege mechanics and which type of fights use which mechanics.



Raid mechanics always tend to a result where the attacker and defender lose the same power of troops.


Siege mechanics become more and more skewed as one side overpowers the other, to the point where it's possible to kill quite large amounts of troops taking next to no losses. This is why people coined up massive league strikes.



Hello,

thank you for this comment, I did not know that. Is there a subject anywhere that speaks of this ?

What you said seems exact to me:






This strategy seems to me risky in castles, because we risk a riposte from the opponent. I guess it's especially useful for beacons and hamlets battles.


I guess that:

 - hamlets battles are considered as sieges ;

 - fortress battles are considered as raids ;

 - beacons battles are considered as sieges.


Is it correct ?

I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
UTC +1:00
1
User
3 January, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

There are several posts one from Plarium which explain how the raid mechanics work. They were made quite a while ago (1-2yrs finding them might not be easy).

High level summary, your losses = power of opponents army / (power your army + power of opponents army). This is also how spying losses work

Can also tell you, it's calculated as a % and then applied to each of the troop stacks you sent. This gives rise to the classic 1 of each troop attack that can kill small amounts of troops with no losses. If done right you can have your troop losses round to zero i.e. if you lose less than 0.5 of a troop.

If you are wondering how def power is calculated seeing as def troops have different stats against each of the 4 troop types, It's done by weighted average. First calculate the power of the defence against pure infantry, cavalry, occult and bestiary, giving you 4 defence values. Next calculate the mix of offence sent of each troop type based on troop power. You then multiply those %'s into the defence values to get the weighted average of the defence against the troops send by the offence player.  

Hamlets, fortress and beacons are all treated as sieges as you assumed.

The siege mechanic is quite complicated. As understanding it is about the only skill left in this Pay to Win game I am not going to reveal it on the forums.



Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
UTC +0:00
1
User
3 January, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

Hamlets, fortress and beacons are all treated as sieges as you assumed.

This is false: I supposed that fortress battles have the same mechanics as raids.



If you are wondering how def power is calculated seeing as def troops have different stats against each of the 4 troop types, It's done by weighted average. First calculate the power of the defence against pure infantry, cavalry, occult and bestiary, giving you 4 defence values. Next calculate the mix of offence sent of each troop type based on troop power. You then multiply those %'s into the defence values to get the weighted average of the defence against the troops send by the offence player.

These calculations seem to me not very useful, but thanks.



The siege mechanic is quite complicated. As understanding it is about the only skill left in this Pay to Win game I am not going to reveal it on the forums.

You criticize the pacifists, then you insult the game. With the right strategy, I believe this game could no longer be a pay to win.

I really like this game because it is elaborate (despite the bad graphics), and I think it's up to the players to adapt it as they wish. Call me a dreamer...

I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
UTC +1:00
1
Moderator
3 January, 2018, 8:18 PM UTC

Erwan said:


Hamlets, fortress and beacons are all treated as sieges as you assumed.

This is false: I supposed that fortress battles have the same mechanics as raids.



If you are wondering how def power is calculated seeing as def troops have different stats against each of the 4 troop types, It's done by weighted average. First calculate the power of the defence against pure infantry, cavalry, occult and bestiary, giving you 4 defence values. Next calculate the mix of offence sent of each troop type based on troop power. You then multiply those %'s into the defence values to get the weighted average of the defence against the troops send by the offence player.

These calculations seem to me not very useful, but thanks.



The siege mechanic is quite complicated. As understanding it is about the only skill left in this Pay to Win game I am not going to reveal it on the forums.

You criticize the pacifists, then you insult the game. With the right strategy, I believe this game could no longer be a pay to win.

I really like this game because it is elaborate (despite the bad graphics), and I think it's up to the players to adapt it as they wish. Call me a dreamer...

Lord Erwan

Only a couple of tips:

read carefully what lord djmoody says. he is a very experienced player and you should take good note of that

when you attack fortress the attack is taken as siege not a raid

second, take a look to this topics:

https://plarium.com/forum/en/stormfall-age-of-war/game-tutorials/38391_how-defensive-points-are-calculated/

https://plarium.com/forum/en/stormfall-age-of-war/game-tutorials/11197_calculating-how-much-defense-is-left-in-a-target/

hope this can help you

Regards

Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
1
User
3 January, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

Only a couple of tips


Hello Juglar Del Viento,

Thanks for your tips.

I read Djmoody carefully, and I know he says interesting things.



Plus, here is an interesting seat that has just been done:



You can compare it with the first picture of the guide.

It's an evidence of the difference between raids and seats.


The defender loses 52/70 = 74,3% of his units.

The attacker loses 35/120 = 29,2% of his units.

It's very different from the raids: the gaps are larger, and the risk of overpow is greater, as Djmoody said.



when you attack fortress the attack is taken as siege not a raid

This seems strange to me, it should be checked.

I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
UTC +1:00
1
User
4 January, 2018, 12:06 AM UTC

For anyone reading this, there is no such thing as "the army of shadows". 


"I advise you to start pvp after getting in the BattleGrounds all the class IV hero equipments."


Ok!

Hola!
UTC -12:00
1
User
4 January, 2018, 8:50 AM UTC

For anyone reading this, there is no such thing as "the army of shadows".

Hello Limad,

The topic presenting the shadow army has been removed.

You can still find traces of its existence on Russian/Ukrainian sites.

Here is an image of the units of the army of shadows:


I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
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1
User
4 January, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

Note that vampire units were not taken into account to create the table:


I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
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0
Community Manager
9 January, 2018, 2:08 PM UTC

Erwan said:


For anyone reading this, there is no such thing as "the army of shadows".

Hello Limad,

The topic presenting the shadow army has been removed.

You can still find traces of its existence on Russian/Ukrainian sites.

Here is an image of the units of the army of shadows:


The Army of Shadows just means Bestiary Units and you can train all of them in the Hall of Shadows.

I think to avoid the confusion among players, it's better to call them Bestiary Units :)

Community Manager
UTC +2:00
0
User
10 January, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

This is Oberon's original post, but it is all lies

https://prnt.sc/bgrn44


It simplifies as 


Total strength divided by (total offense plus total defense)

Often shown as

A/(B+A) = 100

In Oberon's example

1200 Dragons @ 2478 off = 2,973,600 Total Offense

197 Griffin @ 1088 bestiary def = 214,336 Total Defense

Battle Size = 2,973,600 + 214,336 = 3,187,936

2973600/31879.36 = 93.28% defensive losses

214336/31879.36 = 6.72% offensive losses

93.28 + 6.72 = 100% Total Loss

The victory is Pyrrhic because both armies lose the same strength   https://prnt.sc/hyme01
Imagine attacker's losses if you add strong castle walls to the equation (+200% or more)



Since then they have secretly added the Victory Tax which always gives extra casualties to the winner of every battle (up to 10% extra losses)


p.s. I have never seen any evidence showing the difference between Raid and Siege mechanics, and have never noticed any real difference in my experiments
Try sending 100 pikes to attack 200 archers in an empty castle with no walls (both armies should have similar or identical strength)

UTC +0:00
1
User
11 January, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

toggit said:


p.s. I have never seen any evidence showing the difference between Raid and Siege mechanics

Hello,

It seems to me that this is an evidence:








I need your help to spread my revolutionary works in social sciences: https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=78322083&f=276
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1
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