How to choose my units for defensive BG

20 Replies
Erwan
1 September, 2017, 9:37 AM UTC

Hello,

Here is my last BG :








Infantry :

Balur : 424 * 20 = 8480 offense

me : 62.49 * 142 = 8873


Cavalry :

Balur : 124 * 40 = 4960

me : 272.34 * 18 = 4902


Occult :

Balur : 32 * 60 = 1920

me : 4 * 590 = 2360


Bestiary :

Balur : 49*80 = 3920

me : 12 * 240.36 = 2884

(I should have use 17 balists I guess...)




Is it a good idea to work like this or no ?

What do you think about this way of defense ?

Any tips are welcome. Thanks for your answer,


Bye

UTC +1:00
Juglar del Viento
Moderator
1 September, 2017, 10:27 AM UTC

Lord Erwan

when u send troops to a defensive bg it means that balur attacks and you defend

you have to use balur attack stats to determine the force u are going to receive

lets see:



so as u see he is going to attack you with a total of 19280 points and most of them comes from infantry. exactly the 67% of his force comes from it.

so you have to send troops to oposite that power. that means the force you sent is going to defend in this way:

the 67% of ur forces are going to defend against that infantry and the rest of ur forces agaisnt calvatry occults and beast in its respective percentages.

so you should always send to defensive troops agaist the most points balur is sending, in this case infantry

this way u will be winner with less looses.



hope this can be helpfull for u

Regards
Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
Gadheras
1 September, 2017, 11:41 AM UTC

Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?
UTC +2:00
Juglar del Viento
Moderator
1 September, 2017, 11:44 AM UTC

Gadheras said:



Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?

Lord Gadheras

problaby u can be right, what matters what u send if the point is fill the bank?

yep, but the thread is and what the lord ask is about to choose the units for defensive bgs, so i try to help him to choose the troops and how it is done, may be some lords want to learn to do it to have less losses instead of spend all filling the bank

Regards
Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
Erwan
1 September, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

Juglar del Viento said:


Lord Erwan

when u send troops to a defensive bg it means that balur attacks and you defend

you have to use balur attack stats to determine the force u are going to receive

lets see:



so as u see he is going to attack you with a total of 19280 points and most of them comes from infantry. exactly the 67% of his force comes from it.

so you have to send troops to oposite that power. that means the force you sent is going to defend in this way:

the 67% of ur forces are going to defend against that infantry and the rest of ur forces agaisnt calvatry occults and beast in its respective percentages.

so you should always send to defensive troops agaist the most points balur is sending, in this case infantry

this way u will be winner with less looses.



hope this can be helpfull for u

Regards

Hello Lord Juglar del Viento,

Thanks a lot for this very nice and complete answer. It's very helpful :) Do you know if there is any calculator, so I can calculate the exact amount of units I need to send ?

Thanks again,


Good bye

UTC +1:00
Juglar del Viento
Moderator
1 September, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

Lord Erwan

Lord Mark has one and he shares it you can ask him for it

the post is : https://plarium.com/forum/en/stormfall-age-of-war/game-tutorials/10777_banking-battlegrounds/?post=373628

although u can read the entire thread to see if it can help u in ur way on bgs.

feel free to ask all your doubts

Regards

Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
RandomDrop
1 September, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

Gadheras said:



Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?

Actually it matters a lot, the BGs give "hero items, moon coins and unit exp". If you are building for the long game then these are what you're really after and you want them with minimal loss. 

The so called rewards (troops) actually come at a loss and a necessary evil so to speak unless you cannot build the units you desire then its a bonus for army shaping.


UTC +7:00
Oracle
1 September, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC
Gadheras said:


Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?
Yes, the less units you get killed the longer your bank will fill. that is why is advicible, not always but sometimes to send defence to offense BG and viersa versa. If you do the russian model of banking these is the basic, getting the bank filled when you hit a BG in one go. 
Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.....Gedleyihlekisa: Oracle the postremogeniture
UTC +2:00
Oracle
1 September, 2017, 5:24 PM UTC

Erwan said:


Hello Lord Juglar del Viento,

Thanks a lot for this very nice and complete answer. It's very helpful :) Do you know if there is any calculator, so I can calculate the exact amount of units I need to send ?

Thanks again,


Good bye

http://stormfallguide.blogspot.co.za/p/offensive-battlegrounds.html

http://stormfallbgscalculator.com/ ( has ability to log in an build on your bank)

http://stormfall.playtamin.com/  ( used by 99% of top players, endorsed by BIG leagues, Emperors and BR, KT, and probably even KoK)

Spreadsheets( endorsed by KoK and Destiny( they have one online)

Lord Marks BG spreadsheet, ( I use it personally and it works, Although I did some tinkering and merged it with what I recieved from most players) I recooment it, it also helps when you want to start your own spreedsheet, 

http://voidsdev.com/bgs/offense-calculator/ another morror site( works well on mobile) I use it when I am not in front of a PC

Always copy and paste the links.  They might not work as HTML links. 



Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.....Gedleyihlekisa: Oracle the postremogeniture
UTC +2:00
RandomDrop
1 September, 2017, 7:41 PM UTC
Oracle said:

Gadheras said:


Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?
Yes, the less units you get killed the longer your bank will fill. that is why is advicible, not always but sometimes to send defence to offense BG and viersa versa. If you do the russian model of banking these is the basic, getting the bank filled when you hit a BG in one go. 
For anyone trying to build and shape an army this is horrible advice. This sits well below sending legendary units on the list of what not to do.
UTC +7:00
IronApex Turok
1 September, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

I just keep pumping archers or pikemen into the BGs til they are defeated. 


I use the other ques to produce offense.   that way im producing troops while im waiting for pay outs. and i dont lose any worthwhile troops.   


its a slow progress,  but its not as risky as some techniques. 
UTC +0:00
Snowgoon
2 September, 2017, 12:41 AM UTC

Erwan said:


Is it a good idea to work like this or no ?

What do you think about this way of defense ?

Any tips are welcome. Thanks for your answer

The blog works it all out and recommends the best units to send


https://stormfallguide.blogspot.co.uk/p/defense-bg.html


For me this would need only 378 archers - https://prnt.sc/gg1jji
but I would send 400 archers to allow for inf/cav/occ/bestiary defense values

I build 500 infantry every day, usually 300 archers plus 200 pikes

Level 21 green bg should have around 21k strength and eventually give 116 demons and 23 warlocks (or equivalent)  see PLAYTAMIN

https://prnt.sc/gg1lun

Personally, I hate working with green battlegrounds, I find red battlegrounds much easier to kill and find offensive payouts are more valuable





If you need to reduce your losses even further then send a wave of archers first, and then send one of every unit you own (inc Legendary, Darkened, Eldich, Imperial and Normal offense and defense units) - these should always survive so you only lose the first wave of archers

Obviously this can be rather complicated to predict exactly how many archers to sacrifice - message me if interested.
This method can be a bit risky if you do not understand the arithmetic :)



Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
UTC +0:00
Oracle
2 September, 2017, 8:37 AM UTC

RandomDrop said:


Oracle said:


Gadheras said:



Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?
Yes, the less units you get killed the longer your bank will fill. that is why is advicible, not always but sometimes to send defence to offense BG and viersa versa. If you do the russian model of banking these is the basic, getting the bank filled when you hit a BG in one go. 
For anyone trying to build and shape an army this is horrible advice. This sits well below sending legendary units on the list of what not to do.

It does work. And yes people do use legendary when doing BG, especially when they run for tournaments or doing no loss method at BG higher than level 50( a very complex topic). The English way of doing BG( Yellow barring) is dull, and you never know when you will receive a BG that is because it doesn't always satisfy all conditions required to trigger a pay out(bonus). One of those conditions is tax. Let me explain using example

If you're completing a level 50 BG using the Yellow baring method you would send units with power point close to 330 090 force to yellow bar. Now lets say you use pikes and need to complete O BG. keeping in mind that you need 14 565 000 Bank


Pike base power at 32=67 resource value 520, so you will need 4927 pikes which will translate to  1 625 910 resource value. 
 Results, Bank not filled, Tax not met, NO PAY OUT


using pikes on defense


base defense value of pikes= 14 you will need 23 578 pikes, which have a bank value of 12 260 485. But remember that BG will have different strength value, so in reality you will use up to 25 K -28K pikes, and that will have resource value of 16- 20 million, triggering a pay out in 3-5 level 50 BG. 



What most players do, is to yellow many BG before hitting that level 50. But THIS delays their rewards by 10 folds, and unless they force reward at rune BG they lose their army in the long run. And keeping in mind that the logarithm always favors infantry and cavalry at rune BG, by the time they force pay out they  won't have the required army to do rune, so will hit with Eldrich beast or and accult. Which is very wrong. 


I hope you understand, BG are tricky, and they are very complex. And sometimes you might just be surprised how little you really know 

Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.....Gedleyihlekisa: Oracle the postremogeniture
UTC +2:00
Gadheras
2 September, 2017, 9:44 AM UTC
Oracle said:

Gadheras said:


Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?
Yes, the less units you get killed the longer your bank will fill. that is why is advicible, not always but sometimes to send defence to offense BG and viersa versa. If you do the russian model of banking these is the basic, getting the bank filled when you hit a BG in one go. 
What does it matter how long time the bank take to fill, when you need to get to X (number) of resources for it to fill regardless. If all I care about is fill the bank and get units back out.  Russian model? lol. After playing with and Vs Russian players in EVE-Online for like forever, I have nothing but respect for Russian players tbh. 
UTC +2:00
Oracle
2 September, 2017, 10:25 AM UTC

Gadheras said:

What does it matter how long time the bank take to fill, when you need to get to X (number) of resources for it to fill regardless. If all I care about is fill the bank and get units back out.  Russian model? lol. After playing with and Vs Russian players in EVE-Online for like forever, I have nothing but respect for Russian players tbh. 

These is a very good analysis. In retrospect it shouldn't matter how long it takes to fill your bank, for as long as BG Y needs  bank X to fill and you can fill X then it's fine. But since BG payout now include randomness and spin, the pay out can come in relatively long time and its therefore better to fill it faster. 

That is why is better to bank with pathfinders than with pikes,( pikes have low resource value and you will have to build longer). The spin also influnce WHEN you get a pay out. In all my findings are the longer it takes for you to fill a bank the longer it will take for you to find a sweet spot BG and The higher your bank balance is relative to your rune the higher are the probability that the bank will pay. 

I also respect Russians so much that I am thankful that plarium made their own server for stormfall. Otherwise they would have made the biggest coiners here look like noobs. They like to tinker a lot, and view a game in mathematical and analytical term. in contrast we view the game in wack a mole perspective, which is good for Plarium's wallet but not for winning. 

Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.....Gedleyihlekisa: Oracle the postremogeniture
UTC +2:00
BiohazarD
Moderator
2 September, 2017, 7:39 PM UTC
Gadheras said:


Does it really matter much except for the XP you get? You need to feed the BG's resources to get any of value back out of it regardless. If you do a lot of bg's with minimal loss's it would take longer time for the so called rewards to appear right?
Yeah, for what troop types to build I'd just do the ones that let you pump out the most resources per day.  
UTC +0:00
BiohazarD
Moderator
2 September, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

Oracle said:


Gadheras said:

What does it matter how long time the bank take to fill, when you need to get to X (number) of resources for it to fill regardless. If all I care about is fill the bank and get units back out.  Russian model? lol. After playing with and Vs Russian players in EVE-Online for like forever, I have nothing but respect for Russian players tbh. 

These is a very good analysis. In retrospect it shouldn't matter how long it takes to fill your bank, for as long as BG Y needs  bank X to fill and you can fill X then it's fine. But since BG payout now include randomness and spin, the pay out can come in relatively long time and its therefore better to fill it faster. 

That is why is better to bank with pathfinders than with pikes,( pikes have low resource value and you will have to build longer). The spin also influnce WHEN you get a pay out. In all my findings are the longer it takes for you to fill a bank the longer it will take for you to find a sweet spot BG and The higher your bank balance is relative to your rune the higher are the probability that the bank will pay. 

I also respect Russians so much that I am thankful that plarium made their own server for stormfall. Otherwise they would have made the biggest coiners here look like noobs. They like to tinker a lot, and view a game in mathematical and analytical term. in contrast we view the game in wack a mole perspective, which is good for Plarium's wallet but not for winning. 

Speak for yourself lol.  For me taking the game apart and understanding it is the whole point, otherwise you might as well just be playing war of the credit cards.  

It's better to kill bgs efficiently if you can, but it's more important that you're building the types of troops that use the most resources.  If you have enough res in the bank you may have to kill a couple more infests before getting a big payout, but any extra res will just stay in the bank and go towards your next one.  If you don't have enough res loaded you just won't get a full payout.  
UTC +0:00
Juglar del Viento
Moderator
3 September, 2017, 8:01 AM UTC

IronApex Turok said:


I just keep pumping archers or pikemen into the BGs til they are defeated. 



Lord IronApex

if you are going to use that infantry for bgs my advise is to build huntress and pathfinders. they have best ratio resources per day than the others

in the same time u produce pikes and archers u can build less huntress or pathfinders but with more resources for bgs

hope this can help u

regards
Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
djmoody
3 September, 2017, 11:18 AM UTC

BiohazarD said:


otherwise you might as well just be playing war of the credit cards.  

I thought it was already call "Stormfall - Age of Credit Cards" :)

Just to weight into the loading debate - does it matter to be efficient when killing BG's.

The answer in terms of bank loading is as people have said no. The answer in terms of maximising your moon coins, quests bonuses etc is yes, you can do more BG's for less loading which means less taxes/losses.

One other element to throw in that people haven't mentioned. If you boost heavily and are killing BG's you may deny yourself full payouts. You will just see a string of half payouts. So if you are looking to clear your bank and get all your resource out of BG's then you don't want to be fully boosted.

This happens because Plarium added a half/partial payout mechanic. When you are nearly but not quite banked for a full payout it gives you a half payout. If you are too boosted then it can become difficult to load enough in a single BG to go from not banked enough to banked enough for full payout - you keep getting stuck in the middle and getting half payouts.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
UTC +0:00
Juglar del Viento
Moderator
3 September, 2017, 11:34 AM UTC

djmoody said:


This happens because Plarium added a half/partial payout mechanic. When you are nearly but not quite banked for a full payout it gives you a half payout. If you are too boosted then it can become difficult to load enough in a single BG to go from not banked enough to banked enough for full payout - you keep getting stuck in the middle and getting half payouts.


ok

lets say u have in ur bank 30M and as u said u received a half payout lets suppose 15M

where are the rest ??....well i think that half payout cant be consider as a big payout so u have no to return it so...lets try a bg that could give u the rest 15M that are pending.

that is based on older mechanism receiving a split reward in 2 non rune bgs. the first half payout is not the total, and some levels below u received the second part what was consider the big payout...same reward in 2 non rune bgs but less resources to return.

Regards
Resistance Is Futile
UTC +1:00
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