Shin - the true story

68 Replies
mindful
14 September, 2016, 8:11 PM UTC

Thank you for elaborating some Sahira. I am just a low grunt so I still do not understand your argument that one sentence from test is false. Stating facts on a forum is by the way making an argument so I also have no clue why you have that odd reasoning. I like that you argue a point so no worries. 


I read tests sentence as he refers to a league letter inside Emps. Could also be a letter to allies of Emps specifically their leaders. As I stated they usually are delayed some after the decision. I do not view it as a letter to destinys leadership.


About your bold text question. Keep in mind that diplomacy talks include alot of hypthetical questions. That pretty much also go with your B:, which I pretty much do not understand. It is an argument btw and not just stating facts.


So I do not understand your bold text at all about tests refering to an Emps letter. What is the problem in that?


As I said before I am just a grunt. There has to be some hidden meaning of this that I do not see. Is it just something important to get timelines correct? Respect for the other? I have seen Emps on the forum get timelines utterly incorrect and way more then destiny. 


I am btw a grunt that like manners and honour alot more then birthdays or timelines. I do believe there is a catch here somewhere that you have yet to tell me.


Please tell me more m'lady!

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Sahira
15 September, 2016, 12:33 AM UTC
I have nothing more to offer other than what I have personally witnessed and an opinion on the matter.
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Trentos
15 September, 2016, 8:57 AM UTC

I'm delighted to see some rational discussion at last. I read the forums to enhance my enjoyment of a game I love. But of late many posts have crossed the line. What has it become? Who lied the most? Most of what I read is total BS. BTW this is my first post ever only as my name had been mentioned.

I was present at the NAP meeting Sahira refers to, and I found that meeting very civil and constructive. If anybody wants to argue that fact, feel free to buy a ticket aboard the crazy train. What I remember of that meeting is:

1. Destiny were not part of the NAP at that time, but Test was present. What was he doing there?

2. Test ASSUMED he was in, and there was a vote of sorts, and all present agreed they rejoin. Good faith on our part.

3. There was an open invitation for Emperors to rejoin the NAP? WTF? This contradicts much of the BS I have read in the forums this week.

So to get the timing correct, before this NAP meeting, Emperors (formerly part of the Unforgiven family) had already left the NAP after excessive demands from the Great Grand Marshall himself. Personally, I was saddened when Emps left the Unforgiven family. Emps responded by taking on KOK and KOK Delete (most who have since jumped ship to Destiny). Unlike the Coralition we are seperate leagues with our own freedoms. Naturally I cheered on Emps from the sidelines, but I as a Knight was not the only person on the server doing so. Did I get involved or know of plans - NO!!!

So how do Destiny and their underlings respond? I've heard this "spirit of peace" talk so many times, but what did that mean? Break the NAP and attack the Unforgiven who had bent over backwards to accommodate Test's demands?  Very honourable indeed. But was only a matter of time wasn't it? Has happened before, and will happen again. It was nothing new. 

As for the Unforgiven, we have been attacked before, but are strong and united, and will come back. The number of requests from Coralition members to find a new home is getting ridiculous! Many want out. However we are completely different in how we run things and behave. Will the Unforgiven family take it to the aggressors? I doubt it. But we will never forgive or forget such a dishonourable act.

Unforgiven for life

UTC +11:00
Jezebel
15 September, 2016, 2:54 PM UTC

Trentos said:


I'm delighted to see some rational discussion at last. I read the forums to enhance my enjoyment of a game I love. But of late many posts have crossed the line. What has it become? Who lied the most? Most of what I read is total BS. BTW this is my first post ever only as my name had been mentioned.

I was present at the NAP meeting Sahira refers to, and I found that meeting very civil and constructive. If anybody wants to argue that fact, feel free to buy a ticket aboard the crazy train. What I remember of that meeting is:

1. Destiny were not part of the NAP at that time, but Test was present. What was he doing there?

2. Test ASSUMED he was in, and there was a vote of sorts, and all present agreed they rejoin. Good faith on our part.

3. There was an open invitation for Emperors to rejoin the NAP? WTF? This contradicts much of the BS I have read in the forums this week.

So to get the timing correct, before this NAP meeting, Emperors (formerly part of the Unforgiven family) had already left the NAP after excessive demands from the Great Grand Marshall himself. Personally, I was saddened when Emps left the Unforgiven family. Emps responded by taking on KOK and KOK Delete (most who have since jumped ship to Destiny). Unlike the Coralition we are seperate leagues with our own freedoms. Naturally I cheered on Emps from the sidelines, but I as a Knight was not the only person on the server doing so. Did I get involved or know of plans - NO!!!

So how do Destiny and their underlings respond? I've heard this "spirit of peace" talk so many times, but what did that mean? Break the NAP and attack the Unforgiven who had bent over backwards to accommodate Test's demands?  Very honourable indeed. But was only a matter of time wasn't it? Has happened before, and will happen again. It was nothing new. 

As for the Unforgiven, we have been attacked before, but are strong and united, and will come back. The number of requests from Coralition members to find a new home is getting ridiculous! Many want out. However we are completely different in how we run things and behave. Will the Unforgiven family take it to the aggressors? I doubt it. But we will never forgive or forget such a dishonourable act.

Unforgiven for life

I will reply with my recollection of some of these points:

1. The NAP was intended to include all UC leagues which Destiny is in fact a UC league.  We withdrew from the NAP agreement because we had dealt with Shin in the past and for us to accept the NAP he was to be demoted from any type of leadership role in the EMPS.  Shin was demoted but then he continued to threaten leagues we were planning on giving a beacon to (their first beacon).  He told the league in question if they accepted a beacon from us that Emps would drop diplo (and they did).  Funny how he wants to help small deserving leagues get beacons but threatens the ones we help.

2. Test assumed we were in?  Destiny was always supposed to be part of the NAP agreement (something I personally didn't care for to be honest) so given things were fixed on the unforgiven side in regards to Shin then yes the assumption was correct.

3. Emps were always welcome in the NAP, Destiny would have just withdrawn had they stayed.  We forced no one to leave that was their choice on how to deal with it.


Emps only changed their name it was clearly obvious that you all were still working together.  You all kept beacons and Emps dropped theirs to bring the fight to the UC.  The UC are also separate leagues with their own freedoms but we also work TOGETHER and respect UC initiatives.



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djmoody
15 September, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

I guess at the end of the day the trust wasn't there. I read Shin's book about his reasons for war and I can see distrust clouded his judgement at every turn, reading double dealing and back stabbing where there was none. Maybe time will tell that Super League were too paranoid and untrusting with Unforgivens. I did see leagues mails from Knights talking about preparing for war - I think that tipped the balance and was seen as outside of the spirit of peace. 

Maybe those preparations were defensive only. Who knows? Was the name change real - only costs a few thousand sapphs in a league spending $100k? Would you disown Emps completely and change ally status? How does anyone get comfortable that ties and bonds that are intangible have been severed.

It does sadden me the rest of Unforgivens got dragged into this. I never saw those leagues as particularly aggressive, I think most of the players are ill-equpped to fight in this massive war. I don't see evidence that they have the big coiners to survive this war and they don't have the extreme knowledge of BG's to create big armies for free (like the old KoK). So i they just got pointlessly splattered IMO.

If Emps had held onto beacons rather than running a guerrilla war you would have been spared. But Emps left you as the only leagues at risk, out in the open. This wasn't exactly an unforeseen consequence of the war they started. They chose this war knowing these events were likely outcomes.

The sooner Emps comes out and puts defence on the line, the sooner these two major powers can fight to the death and the server can then return to some semblance of order. Because the rest of us dont have the coin (Emps) or the 3 yrs of troop building (Super League) to take part in this war. 

The longer it goes on the more people it will drag in. I say that as Marshal of the remnants of KoK and Elite league, who are all much like you, the small and medium players, who are ill-equipped to take part and survive in the battle of the ego's taking place and like you are sitting highly at risk of being hit.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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thefray
15 September, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

Trentos said:


I'm delighted to see some rational discussion at last. I read the forums to enhance my enjoyment of a game I love. But of late many posts have crossed the line. What has it become? Who lied the most? Most of what I read is total BS. BTW this is my first post ever only as my name had been mentioned.

I was present at the NAP meeting Sahira refers to, and I found that meeting very civil and constructive. If anybody wants to argue that fact, feel free to buy a ticket aboard the crazy train. What I remember of that meeting is:

1. Destiny were not part of the NAP at that time, but Test was present. What was he doing there?

2. Test ASSUMED he was in, and there was a vote of sorts, and all present agreed they rejoin. Good faith on our part.

3. There was an open invitation for Emperors to rejoin the NAP? WTF? This contradicts much of the BS I have read in the forums this week.

So to get the timing correct, before this NAP meeting, Emperors (formerly part of the Unforgiven family) had already left the NAP after excessive demands from the Great Grand Marshall himself. Personally, I was saddened when Emps left the Unforgiven family. Emps responded by taking on KOK and KOK Delete (most who have since jumped ship to Destiny). Unlike the Coralition we are seperate leagues with our own freedoms. Naturally I cheered on Emps from the sidelines, but I as a Knight was not the only person on the server doing so. Did I get involved or know of plans - NO!!!

So how do Destiny and their underlings respond? I've heard this "spirit of peace" talk so many times, but what did that mean? Break the NAP and attack the Unforgiven who had bent over backwards to accommodate Test's demands?  Very honourable indeed. But was only a matter of time wasn't it? Has happened before, and will happen again. It was nothing new. 

As for the Unforgiven, we have been attacked before, but are strong and united, and will come back. The number of requests from Coralition members to find a new home is getting ridiculous! Many want out. However we are completely different in how we run things and behave. Will the Unforgiven family take it to the aggressors? I doubt it. But we will never forgive or forget such a dishonourable act.

Unforgiven for life

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I am pretty sure I read somwhere (Sarah Walker I think) Emperors hit the UC cause they were all allied. You were/are more than allied you are family at least you are again since having them change the name didn't exclude you from this.

I have seen the mail, will anyone fess up to giving up their flag to make Emperors stronger for this war???


Wasn't the timeline Unforgiven Emperors hit the UC, Unforgiven family then said change your name quick, you just started a massive war.

Don't worry we still consider you family and are still allied but please change your name.


Why ask them to change their name?????? Too bad it was done after the fact.

A. Protection 

or 

B. Disagreement


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Trentos
16 September, 2016, 7:29 AM UTC

Thank you all for your responses to my post. I appreciate the mature discourse (no flaming/personal attacks), even if I strongly disagree with many of the counterpoints.

Firstly Jezebel 

Destiny was always supposed to be part of the NAP agreement

Emps were always welcome in the NAP, Destiny would have just withdrawn had they stayed. We forced no one to leave that was their choice on how to deal with it

This is not my recollection. Destiny had withdrawn before this meeting took place. As I stated in my post, an olive branch was extended to Emps Marshall Frenzie to rejoin, as Destiny had just done. This WAS discussed in that particular NAP meeting, when the unanimous vote for Destiny to REJOIN took place. Are you suggesting that this discussion was misleading, and that Destiny would of subsequently withdrawn if Frenzie chose that option? 

The UC are also separate leagues with their own freedoms

This I find hard to believe after hearing many firsthand reports from ex UC members. What happened to the big players/leadership of KOK, KOK Delete and GOA? Why would a Marshall/strong players of a league just pack their bags and switch leagues? I'd personally ride the highs and lows of server wars, and look after my own SEPERATE LEAGUE, rather than leave the players that have got them to where they were in the lurch. Their own freedoms? I find that hard to fathom.

Secondly DJMOODY

I did see leagues mails from Knights talking about preparing for war - I think that tipped the balance and was seen as outside of the spirit of peace. Maybe those preparations were defensive only. Who knows? 

I think you hit the nail on the head there DJ. Why wouldn't we be on the defensive? Was only a matter of time before Destiny broke the NAP, as everyone on the server knows that Test is two-faced. As for league mails, if you are playing a war game, then you should always be preparing for war. Don't see how this implicates Knights? You want to talk about "Spirit of Peace"? What about Destiny breaking the NAP agreement and then later announcing they were withdrawing? No league in their right mind would expect them to honour any agreement. The whole server knows this. I find it amasing how often you guys throw around this "Spirit of Peace" BS, when the UC has such a long history of breaking agreements and heading to the forums to try to twist the truth. Don't take me for a fool DJ. You in particular know what I'm talking about :-)

It does sadden me the rest of Unforgivens got dragged into this. I never saw those leagues as particularly aggressive, I think most of the players are ill-equpped to fight in this massive war. I don't see evidence that they have the big coiners to survive this war and they don't have the extreme knowledge of BG's to create big armies for free (like the old KoK). So i they just got pointlessly splattered IMO.

I can just see you losing sleep over this DJ :-) Don't come the raw prawn with me. You assume too much here, which isn't a good characteristic for a league Marshall. Pointlessly spattered? That was what happened to KOK, not us.

The sooner Emps comes out and puts defence on the line, the sooner these two major powers can fight to the death

The most ridiculous statement I've heard so far. The defence is on the line, but your leadership seem reluctant to take it on. Why? I'm guessing that knowledge is above your pay-grade? Maybe you have to ask your big boss before posting assumptions in the forums.

And Lastly THEFRAY

Sorry Mate, but really can't understand what you are getting at. Guess every league needs it's class clown yeah. The only part of your post that was legible was:

Why ask them to change their name?????? Too bad it was done after the fact

I'm praying you find your way out of that time warp you seem to be caught in. After what fact? Who asked to change name? If you like I can get you a return ticket back on the sane train. 
UTC +11:00
Jezebel
16 September, 2016, 8:59 AM UTC

Yes Destiny was supposed to be part of the NAP - the UC discussed it for weeks before ever meeting with the Unforgivens.  


If Shin was still in a leadership position - yes - Destiny would have withdrawn and Emps could have stayed.  Not sure what part you are missing there.


Lastly tell me how Emps defense is on the line?  Its stacked up in the fortress which has a force limit to hit it so it is not like a beacon that can be hammered out.  To try to hammer that fortress out would be utterly stupid, especially since we don't expect our members to pay for our hammer.
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Ichezis
25 September, 2016, 12:31 PM UTC

Lords and Ladies, please hear me out!

First of all, let me inform you that I've skimmed through, if I need to know any more details, please let me know!


Secondly, please let me point out that flaming (being offensive to one another) does not get us any further. You all might know, that when one started a quarrel, both the parties will feel bad about it. Ways to finish it and make sure it ends well, is easily done by staying polite and civil.

All those points are explained in this topic, make sure to read it, because it really does prevent further issues!


If both the sides keep yelling at each other, it'll all end up badly, and that's something I don't want to happen. You probably know the saying 'What goes around comes around.' Just make sure you treat people as you would like to be treated.


Lastly, please make sure you keep offensive items, images, or video's out of these kind of situations. Informing people about IP's and such is honestly not the way to do it. Not calling names.


Hope you all understand!

Warning: If this keeps going downhill, I'll have to close this thread!

Plarium Global Moderator; "We can't help everyone, but everyone can help someone."
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