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BG went terribly wrong

34 Replies
RightThingToDo
14 July, 2016, 9:11 PM UTC

Hello, can someone please explain to me what force i should have sent to that BG for zero-loss tactic to work.

Level 16  BG i've sent 34871.3, off force, to be exact.

http://imgur.com/a/b4PJ2

I thought that multiplying by 3 expected force of level 16 BG, 8790, would allow me to clear it safely. Sadly that wasnt the case.


UTC +2:00
brunsonthomas
14 July, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC
RightThingToDo said:

Hello, can someone please explain to me what force i should have sent to that BG for zero-loss tactic to work.

Level 16  BG i've sent 34871.3, off force, to be exact.

http://imgur.com/a/b4PJ2

I thought that multiplying by 3 expected force of level 16 BG, 8790, would allow me to clear it safely. Sadly that wasnt the case.


To start with you those were 109 demons. The second thing I noticed is you had several Legendaries without enough support troops. The lowest I have successfully attacked a level 16 is 82K offense. I believe you have an outdated calculator, since demons were not on the pictures of units you were attacking.
UTC +5:00
jumy
15 July, 2016, 3:17 AM UTC
RightThingToDo ha detto:

Ciao, qualcuno può spiegare a me che cosa forza avrei dovuto inviato a quella BG per il valore zero la perdita di tattica al lavoro.

Livello 16 BG ho mandato 34871,3, fuori la forza, per essere esatti.

http://imgur.com/a/b4PJ2

Ho pensato che moltiplicando per 3 la forza prevista di livello 16 BG, 8790, mi avrebbe permesso di cancellare in modo sicuro. Purtroppo che era il caso.


max value x11.5, you lose 10% where 0.5% count not die
The truth hurts
UTC +12:00
RightThingToDo
15 July, 2016, 9:28 AM UTC

brunsonthomas said:


RightThingToDo said:


Hello, can someone please explain to me what force i should have sent to that BG for zero-loss tactic to work.

Level 16  BG i've sent 34871.3, off force, to be exact.

http://imgur.com/a/b4PJ2

I thought that multiplying by 3 expected force of level 16 BG, 8790, would allow me to clear it safely. Sadly that wasnt the case.


To start with you those were 109 demons. The second thing I noticed is you had several Legendaries without enough support troops. The lowest I have successfully attacked a level 16 is 82K offense. I believe you have an outdated calculator, since demons were not on the pictures of units you were attacking.

I am using english version of Stromfall and those 109 creatures,  are called marennons just as in the calculator i am using http://www.stormfallbgscalculator.com/defensebgs.html

It may be outdated, though. It definetely wasnt updated after the last changes in BGs mechanics.


Zero-loss tactic i am refering to consists of sending one of each type of units you have (i sent 77). If their total force is greater than 3 times the force of BG you are attacing, in theory you, you wont lose a single unit (I lost all but 1 pikeman). That is way my Legendaries were without proper support.


Unfortunately all my knowledge comes from this forum, and I might have not understood how to properly use this method (pretty obvious is you saw the screenshot :)). That's why i am asking if someone could clarify how to use it correctly.


@ Jumy I might end up doing that, sending pikes or whatever as  sacrificial lambs, but that wont be the lossless method I was hoping to find.


Thank you guys for responding i know many people here are reluctant to share their knowledge.


UTC +2:00
Inaginni
15 July, 2016, 12:31 PM UTC
RightThingToDo said:

-snip-

I am using english version of Stromfall and those 109 creatures,  are called marennons just as in the calculator i am using http://www.stormfallbgscalculator.com/defensebgs.html

It may be outdated, though. It definetely wasnt updated after the last changes in BGs mechanics.


Zero-loss tactic i am refering to consists of sending one of each type of units you have (i sent 77). If their total force is greater than 3 times the force of BG you are attacing, in theory you, you wont lose a single unit (I lost all but 1 pikeman). That is way my Legendaries were without proper support.


Unfortunately all my knowledge comes from this forum, and I might have not understood how to properly use this method (pretty obvious is you saw the screenshot :)). That's why i am asking if someone could clarify how to use it correctly.


@ Jumy I might end up doing that, sending pikes or whatever as  sacrificial lambs, but that wont be the lossless method I was hoping to find.


Thank you guys for responding i know many people here are reluctant to share their knowledge.


You need to weaken the bg more before using the zero loss method.
UTC +0:00
securitas04
15 July, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

Good day, RightThingToDo!

As you may know, you have two different types of BGs, red Offensive and green Defensive. The Balur units have very different stats for offensive or defensive combat, just as your own units do. So the Marennons will always have an offensive value of 80 no matter what. It will also have a defensive value of 80...unless you use Beast type units, then its value is 240! That is what seems to have happened in your unfortunate raid. I'm not sure exactly how this part of combat works. If you were to raid 100 Marennons with 1 Dragon and 99 Paladins, would the Marennons defend with one at 240 and the rest at 80, or would all be at 240? I have kept some records of BGs I've raided. I know that my group of single units can take out a red Offensive BG at level 11 or below. I find it prudent to attack only those red BGs and to do only green higher level BGs where I can be certain of the combat values. If I must defeat an offensive Saga BG, then I just figure that each Balur unit is at its max strength (Marennon 240/Orc 60/Raider 120/Ogre 180).


This is what I do. It won't allow you to defeat one BG with 4000 Dragons and then immediately liberate 8000 Dragons, but at my end of the scale, it seems to work fine. I am currently doing a Saga Quest. I produce about 500 Archers every day and about 50+ Silent Ones (I'm making 1000 SOs for a Feat of Valor to get 100 Saphires). My Archers are double strength because I discovered the Lost Arts to get them to level 20, plus I have a very good Hero with 6 mythic and two rare level V infantry items, as well as an active defensive relic and a level 5 Shard. So 500 Archers are about 21,000 defense strength. I send the Archers and the SOs into the BG to weaken the Balur units. After a few days of this, I can finish off the BG with my group of single units (I call them aces, since that is the playing card with value one and they have a high kill quotient, like ace pilots). With enough "Archers and Aces" any green BG can be defeated.


I follow a routine that supposedly no longer works as well as it did since the "new reward system". However it works fine for me. I sacrifice my daily production units to the highest BG that I am currently weakening. This creates a certain amount of resources (a bank) that I may eventually get back as units. I then do 6-10 of those BGs that my aces can defeat alone, from highest to lowest level. Somewhere along the way, perhaps until the next day, I liberate some of those banked units. I then use the banked units, plus any other free units that I have acquired from loyalty or events to weaken remaining BGs (yellow-bar) to the point where my aces can again defeat them without loss. So, over the past two weeks I've sacrificed approximately 7k archers plus some free units. However, I now have liberated and kept 50 Dragons, 12 Necros, 160 Griffins, 53 Golems and 131 Demons that I otherwise cannot produce. This weekend I will finish the defensive Saga quest for 190 Griffins. In addition, I got 6 Legendaries and 70 Demons from BG/experience tournaments and I'm working on the next BG tourney. Thus, I got rewarded twice. Good luck!

UTC +5:00
jumy
16 July, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

some examples for understanding, add type troops, dark troops?




The truth hurts
UTC +12:00
jumy
16 July, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

or best solution is use only 1 E. pikeman



The truth hurts
UTC +12:00
Snowgoon
17 July, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

RightThingToDo said:


Hello, can someone please explain to me what force i should have sent to that BG for zero-loss tactic to work.

Level 16  BG i've sent 34871.3, off force, to be exact.

http://imgur.com/a/b4PJ2

I thought that multiplying by 3 expected force of level 16 BG, 8790, would allow me to clear it safely. Sadly that wasnt the case.

Firstly, the link yo give is for green battlegrounds, not red

You need this for red bg - http://www.stormfallbgscalculator.com/offensebgs.html


The average expected strength of level 16 bg should be around 9,500 so you might expect that a zero-loss squad of 23,750 should be safe.
but that is only half the story.

Examine this screenshot carefully.



The average strength is calculated with the assumption that balur population is also average - your level 16 bg was far from average, there were far too many Marennon which greatly increased the strength because you sent Legendary and Bestiary units.

You can send one archer to ANY bg to get a full battle report, but calculating the exact strength is complicated by the units you send.

Actually, you were quite unlucky. Your 34,871 bg squad was very close to being enough - That level 16 had around 16k defense, so you needed over 40k bg squad - My BG Squad has 100 units and is over 75k offense (including 10 or 11 Legendaries and a full set of dark, eldrich and imperial units) I send 2.5x bg strength but 3x is safer
In future, always add extra infantry if you are not certain of bg strength - or send a wave of pikemen first.

http://stormfall.playtamin.com/?attackmode=5&attackmode2=1&attackmode3=1&a1=1&a2=1&a3=1&a4=1&a37=1&a38=1&a39=1&a40=1&a45=1&a46=1&a9025=1&a9024=1&a33=1&a5=1&a6=1&a7=1&a8=1&a47=1&a9026=1&a9027=1&a9018=1&a9019=1&a9=1&a10=1&a11=1&a12=1&a9003=1&a9020=1&a9021=1&a13=1&a14=1&a15=1&a16=1&a48=1&a9032=1&a9022=1&a9023=1&a94=1&a97=1&a95=1&a9005=1&a96=1&a92=1&d53=2&d55=11&d56=109



Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
UTC +0:00
jumy
18 July, 2016, 8:02 AM UTC

Balur troops have bonus to types of troops, if you send only bestiary Marennon defense is 240, vs other type is 80, vs mix type is a mix % (if with beast)

for accurate calculation need all % you send for each type

The truth hurts
UTC +12:00
RightThingToDo
18 July, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

Using the same 77 units i was able to clear other off level 16 bgs, with more evenly distributed enemies. I guess i need to spy first and find out what is the max number of maronnen/orks/... my troops can handle by calculating what actual force inf/cav/... has, as Jumy suggested.


@ Tony Hobson or whoever can answer. Why there is 16k def according to Tony. I know playtamin calculator shows that value but if you change for example pikes to 1000 it only displays 11k def.

http://stormfall.playtamin.com/?attackmode=5&attackmode2=1&attackmode3=1&a1=1&a2=1&a3=1&a4=1&a37=1&a38=1&a39=1&a40=1&a45=1&a46=1&a9025=1&a9024=1&a33=1&a5=1&a6=1&a7=1&a8=1&a47=1&a9026=1&a9027=1&a9018=1&a9019=1&a9=1&a10=1&a11=1&a12=1&a9003=1&a9020=1&a9021=1&a13=1&a14=1&a15=1&a16=1&a48=1&a9032=1&a9022=1&a9023=1&a94=1&a97=1&a95=1&a9005=1&a96=1&a92=1&d53=2&d55=11&d56=109

Which value is the correct one? I dont like using it as i doesnt allow to select darkened and imperial units, which i use, and spits out unreliable informations (or i just cannot comprehend them).

Once again thank you for your help.

UTC +2:00
securitas04
18 July, 2016, 11:39 PM UTC

Rather than trust someone's calculator program, I just do the numbers myself.

For a Green Defensive BG, multiply each unit number by: Marrenon 80/Orcs 20/Raiders 40/Ogres 60.

For a Red Offensive BG I multiply the unit number by the max value possible and can never go wrong: Marrenon 240/Orcs 60/Raiders 120/Ogres 180.

I send in a scout. Then I figure out their strength. Next I send in enough units to weaken the Balur force (the game tells me my own units' strength). Finally my group of single units is three times as strong and finishes them off.

I use a simple online numeric calculator to do the multiplication and add the sum.

It's not rocket science and for me it's "the right thing to do".

UTC +5:00
Snowgoon
19 July, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

RightThingToDo said:


Using the same 77 units i was able to clear other off level 16 bgs, with more evenly distributed enemies. I guess i need to spy first and find out what is the max number of maronnen/orks/... my troops can handle by calculating what actual force inf/cav/... has, as Jumy suggested.


@ Tony Hobson or whoever can answer. Why there is 16k def according to Tony. I know playtamin calculator shows that value but if you change for example pikes to 1000 it only displays 11k def.

http://stormfall.playtamin.com/?attackmode=5&attackmode2=1&attackmode3=1&a1=1&a2=1&a3=1&a4=1&a37=1&a38=1&a39=1&a40=1&a45=1&a46=1&a9025=1&a9024=1&a33=1&a5=1&a6=1&a7=1&a8=1&a47=1&a9026=1&a9027=1&a9018=1&a9019=1&a9=1&a10=1&a11=1&a12=1&a9003=1&a9020=1&a9021=1&a13=1&a14=1&a15=1&a16=1&a48=1&a9032=1&a9022=1&a9023=1&a94=1&a97=1&a95=1&a9005=1&a96=1&a92=1&d53=2&d55=11&d56=109

Which value is the correct one? I dont like using it as i doesnt allow to select darkened and imperial units, which i use, and spits out unreliable informations (or i just cannot comprehend them).

Once again thank you for your help.

This is the 'average' level 16 red bg from playtamin




19 marennon, 83 orcs,40 raiders and 26 ogres = 9500 total average defense
Please note that each unit group comprises around 25% of total bg defense.

It would make no difference which units you send, it would always have around 9500 defense




Unfortunately, balur's units are too random and we frequently find battlegrounds with too many marennon or ogres

Sending bestiary units to any red bg populated with too many marennon will proportionally increase its defensive value. Green battlegrounds do not really suffer from this problem.


My BG Squad has 100 units worth 74,341.7 offense
22 Bestiary = 40,291.3 (54.8% of total power)
18 Occult   = 20,584.3 (27.69%)
22 Cavalry = 10,518.2 (14.15%)
37 Infantry =  2,947.9 (3.96%)

55% of my strength comes from bestiary units (inc their legendaries) so a high population of marennon will make a huge difference, but extra ogres, raiders or orcs will make a much smaller difference. If all groups were worth 25% then it would make no difference.

55% of all marennon will have their strength increased from 80 to 240
28% of all ogres will have their strength increased from 60 to 180
14% of all raiders will have their strength increased from 40 to 120
4% of all orcs will have their strength increased from 20 to 60


Adding 1,000 extra pikemen will reduce the percentage power of bestiary units, and therefore reduce the effectiveness of marennon units, so the total defense is reduced to 11k


p.s. You need to save your sapphire rewards from tournaments to buy Gt Western Dragon and Ice Dragon (available at Christmas)
I paid 600 for Gt Western using the discount from Wheel of Fortune - One of each legendary gives your squad a massive boost in power.




Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
UTC +0:00
djmoody
21 July, 2016, 6:25 AM UTC

securitas04 said:


 I'm not sure exactly how this part of combat works. If you were to raid 100 Marennons with 1 Dragon and 99 Paladins, would the Marennons defend with one at 240 and the rest at 80, or would all be at 240? 

It's calculated by weighted average.

- calculate the defence power of the defenders against a 100% bestiary, 100% occult, 100% cavalry, 100% infantry attack (which is what that calculate does from memory)

- next seperately work separately the power of the infantry / cavalry / occult / bestiary troops you are sending

- turn step 2 into a % of your total army power

- multiply the infantry defence power by the % of your troop power that is infantry and repeate for cavalry/occult and bestiary

- add the result of the last step together and you have the defense value against the particular troop mix of your attack 

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
UTC +0:00
RightThingToDo
22 July, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

OK. I think i get it now. My squad had: bestiary 29,4% occult 41,22% cav 21%, inf 8,4%. In this particular bg that gives bestiary defense 7896,84 points occult 4315,73 cav 1978,2 inf 798.


So to answer my original question what i should have sent. At least 7869,84*201% in bestiary offense (which i failed to do) 4315,73*201% in occult 1978,2*201% in cav 798*201% in inf.


If above calculation are wrong please correct me.

Thank you all kind people in this thread for sharing your knowledge.

I hope someone will find this thread usefull and learn from my mistakes.
UTC +2:00
jinix90
23 August, 2016, 12:25 AM UTC

fairly new at this.

I have no idea what to send to a battleground - I just send all my offence to a red and all my defense to a green. seems to work at lower level bgs.

I just stop fighting when I get losses I can't replenish fast enough. .. and wait til I have enough units and fight the bg level again.

Is this wrong? crazy? silly? whats the right way?

Is the calculator necessary and if so why does the game not provide those stats without it?
UTC +7:00
Nemanja
29 August, 2016, 6:24 PM UTC

Lord JINIX90,

as a player as you are I would advice you to yellow as much Bg's as you can.

Although that tactics was better before even now you can score more troops than you've loosed. At least it works with me.

So, instead of defeating few Bg's per day wait for a while and defeat ten of them or more per week. It might help.
Nemanja
UTC +1:00
IronApex Turok
31 August, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC
Bgs arent profitable unless  you are throwing around a  2 million troops. Thats part of the problem with lower level players not seeing much pay out. 
UTC +0:00
exxxe
31 August, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

http://prntscr.com/ccoljs


just find a good strategy i do agree BG's are not easy but if you master them they are worth it

I'am me and that is what i care about :)
UTC +3:00
Drogar61
1 September, 2016, 2:01 AM UTC

@EXXXE

How much resources you spent to get that payout?
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