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The reward system on Battlegrounds is now secure against attempts to obtain Units in an unfair way!

310 Replies
Nemanja
2 July, 2016, 8:06 PM UTC

Lord Exxxe,

I totaly agree with you. Nothing much appear to be changed unless everything you do is yellowing BG's. Last few days I'm testing different tactics. So far I'm gaining much as before, aproximately 25 %
Nemanja
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Snowgoon
2 July, 2016, 8:08 PM UTC

exxxe said:


guys winning a good payout from BG's has always been a hard thing to do that is not new 

i guess that with this update BG's have not changed that much such that 

 winning a BG with unit losses you will always  earn some  units back ( i played BG today this is true) however :-


a) the units rewarded will not be bigger or better( in terms of total power) than the units lost because you also earn exp points, resources, hero items, tournament points and others (note that this was always the case even before the update)

b) no losses no reward (same also before the update)

c) the bank is still there all you have to do is to adapt and find a better strategy ( that is the only thing the update affected)


so in my point of view the update only requires some players to find a new strategy to play BG and this has always been hard since the beginning of the game 

Many questions remain unanswered.

If we send units to weaken battlegrounds, then what happens to their resource value?

It is my belief that this nerf allows them to sit there forever and are never added to our resource bank until the bg is killed.


This means that there is only one 'strategy' - hit battlegrounds one by one and wait (endlessly) for a big payout

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
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kay125_m
2 July, 2016, 8:55 PM UTC
LadyDragon said:

I would like to see our bank.  i would like to know just how much I have to kill  before I can get a payout. So far they are just crumbs


We will never show bank value to our players. This information is classified. BGs were designed to be a secret, and our players always had to figure them out on their own.

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Camulos
2 July, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC
Nemanja said:

My Lords,

I think it would be great to have one legendary unit which could destroy at least some of the troops hidden in catacombs.
That rather defeats the point of having catacombs and would allow players to be completely wiped out when repeated enough
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exxxe
3 July, 2016, 2:06 AM UTC

Tony Hobson said:


exxxe said:


guys winning a good payout from BG's has always been a hard thing to do that is not new 

i guess that with this update BG's have not changed that much such that 

 winning a BG with unit losses you will always  earn some  units back ( i played BG today this is true) however :-


a) the units rewarded will not be bigger or better( in terms of total power) than the units lost because you also earn exp points, resources, hero items, tournament points and others (note that this was always the case even before the update)

b) no losses no reward (same also before the update)

c) the bank is still there all you have to do is to adapt and find a better strategy ( that is the only thing the update affected)


so in my point of view the update only requires some players to find a new strategy to play BG and this has always been hard since the beginning of the game 

Many questions remain unanswered.

If we send units to weaken battlegrounds, then what happens to their resource value?

It is my belief that this nerf allows them to sit there forever and are never added to our resource bank until the bg is killed.


This means that there is only one 'strategy' - hit battlegrounds one by one and wait (endlessly) for a big payout

their resource value is there 

IF your strategy is to weaken (yellow BG) filling the bank and then hitting one BG for a big payout then you will notice that this update will force you to hit more BG for the payout (what the update does is slowing the process you will get the payout but later than you used to because you will need to hit more BG)


please note that the strategy still works but only an exploit within it has been fixed which unfortunately would affect us all (the effect is that players who stay on this strategy have to hit more BG and thus waiting longer for big payouts)


maybe you can start working on a new strategy 


I'am me and that is what i care about :)
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Nemanja
3 July, 2016, 8:51 AM UTC

Camulos said:


Nemanja said:


My Lords,

I think it would be great to have one legendary unit which could destroy at least some of the troops hidden in catacombs.
That rather defeats the point of having catacombs and would allow players to be completely wiped out when repeated enough

Lord CAMULOS,

I disagree, Emptying catacombs would turn inactive players castles into the farms. There are plenty low leveled castles in which you can hide your deff. 
Nemanja
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Stewart
3 July, 2016, 11:31 AM UTC

Kill your troops while they are in the cats? Thats one of the most retarded ideas i have heard in a long time.


with the amount of alts that some have, let alone the subleagues and ally leagues. You will go to bed with 220mil in your cats and wake up to find you have been raided thousands of times and have nothing left.
Noodle maker extreme
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Drogar61
3 July, 2016, 12:07 PM UTC

Nemanja said:


Camulos said:


Nemanja said:


My Lords,

I think it would be great to have one legendary unit which could destroy at least some of the troops hidden in catacombs.
That rather defeats the point of having catacombs and would allow players to be completely wiped out when repeated enough

Lord CAMULOS,

I disagree, Emptying catacombs would turn inactive players castles into the farms. There are plenty low leveled castles in which you can hide your deff. 

It's really hard to follow your ideas.

Inactive players are already farms.

You can't hide troops in castles, because they are visible except when they are in catacombs. If I will decide to keep troops public, then I will choose my castle with my walls and infirmary, and friend support.

I hope that your shine idea is just your, not next Plarium surprise.

For MODERATOR (you): Please don't pollute this thread more. Instead of that, please remove all non-related posts, towards original message, into new post somewhere where such text belongs. Please do your job.
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Juglar del Viento
Moderator
3 July, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

Hi all

reading all post here and in FB it has made me wonder some things i would like to traslade and get answered if possible

all we know rewards are based on banking and its supposed the payout arrives when the bank is full and ready

is this really this way now ?? are big rewards awaiting if i hit with my full bank and going to get this ??

ok, this adjustment you, the devs and admins, did .... what its the purpose ???

so one year ago u changed the system rewards, usually the bg payed only the 10% of its max value if bank was not ready.

so we all or almost all have been constructing our bank yellowing the bgs, why ?? because our armies and troops werent large enough to hit high bgs in one shot

so we, with ur change banked properly to get the big prize and then finish the yellowing getting a big payouts and many 10% payouts.

our bank sometimes got in negative numbers so the next time we wanted to have a big payout we had to bank the amount required for that payout + all the amount needed to leave the negative amount.

so this is consecuence about your change last july of 2015. now result that thas is 'unfair' ... why ? we have sometimes to bank the double for same prize as before july 2015.

now i read with this change that big rewards are missing even if your bank is ready for the payout, and read We need to bank like 3000 dragons to receive 1500 dragons reward. is this true, and if true What is the point of word "Fair" in this contest?

we only need a little light to see the tunnel. hope you can give us a clue for how to work with bgs now.

Regards


Resistance Is Futile
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Snowgoon
3 July, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

Juglar del Viento said:


Hi all

reading all post here and in FB it has made me wonder some things i would like to traslade and get answered if possible

all we know rewards are based on banking and its supposed the payout arrives when the bank is full and ready

is this really this way now 

ok, this adjustment you, the devs and admins, did .... what its the purpose ???


so this is consecuence about your change last july of 2015. now result that this is 'unfair' ... why ? we have sometimes to bank the double for same prize as before july 2015.

Plarium did not intend to claim that yellowing was unfair - they just did that because none of them understand how to speak to their customers.... nor do they understand how to apologise for their blunder

Apparently, they are trying to claim that an 'unfair exploit' was used by one or two players on their yellowed bg - so many hundreds of genuine players who use yellowing will now wait longer and longer for payouts, because plarium devs do not understand how the exploit can be repaired.

They are desperate to keep this 'exploit' secret because they have not identified it and removed it correctly - they find it easier to nerf the entire system .... but the loophole has not been removed


This loophole could not exist using the original bg system - they added 'guaranteed rewards' last year in a blatant attempt to reduce the frequency of giant payouts - this change had absolutely nothing to do with helping new players, they just used that excuse for spin and sound-bites

Now we are told bg payouts will be even less frequent - A double-nerf .... and we are now paying double-tax


Perhaps now they have opened an expensive new office in London they will be able to find one person who understands how to use the English language without branding most of their best customers as cheats - Undoubtedly, they are now mustering all their resources to keep this blunder a secret from Avi Shalel

http://www.develop-online.net/news/plarium-opens-new-london-office/0215454

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
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Drogar61
3 July, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

Again, Plarium needed to change BG, because after all their logic nonsense, they lost most our fights, and Plarium lost money.

Most of players played only BG, avoiding loosing 50-70% of troops in PVPs, and accepting taxes in BG (whatever number is but much less).

How to stop that?

Simple, make fake story, and go further as usually. Keep all change under fog, calling on secret, and repeat fairy tale until it becomes acceptable.

Mechanics is changed, some people will have big trouble, and maybe some of them will use wallet. The others will get less, and Plarium will get more. They couldn't simple change BG mechanics like last time, because they wasn't sure what could be happenned.

Last BG changes led Lord Oberon into nowhere, who will be next one?

How this started?

Stupid mini payouts, allowed negative bank. And pushed us to have so many yellowed tasks. Is something changed in that? NO

Or, to be more precise, we have to yellow tasks, because we can't spend enough troops to fill bank with one task - we have to yellow some of them.

What will be consequences of that?

After some full payout we will not have get next one from almost finished tasks with still full bank, because it will mean yellow line, and it's prohibited now. Instead of that you will have to finish several yellowed tasks, get mini payouts, and repeat process with similar task when you get them tomorrow. So, you will pay taxes several times for similar tasks because tomorrow you will be in the same position, for new goal task (task with full payout). Slower getting full payout will just delay n taxes for same thing (Tony I think that you wrong with term double, I believe that that number will be n, just opinion, sorry for mentioning you).

Notice next:

Can you repeat main reason for this change - going into negative balance after you yellow all tasks? YES

For that situation nothing is changed. Before changes you could have negative balance and now you could have negative balance.

I believed in Santa Claus, but when I was young.

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AlberBeni
3 July, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC
I dont know why all people is angry with plarium, i know that i play in a game similar to a coin machine, is funiest as money i can spend on it, i playing knowing it and think that people dont know it while playing. Yellow bar method is unfair because we not need to spend money for get good army and we can be equals as pay for win players, That is a fact... Oposite to repair "the xploit" and put a visible bank balance in the BG´s for know when the bank is ready for a big reward... or give us a minimal text, how they think we can make the BG´s, or is the correct way, and the most important if players cheat the system... why arent banned about it? because spend money on it i think.. hahahaha are a lot ot players with two or more castles on same server, unfair is that you only can be stronger if spend money, upgrade buildings more than 20 its only avaiable for pay for win players, this is another fact, i like to look info about the thinks i not untherstand, BG´s is one of them, i like to find some tutorial or tex from plarium explaining us why is the way for complete BG´s, what we must spend on it, what is our profit making them.... but i not found nothing... a strategy game that you dont know how you give a reward or when you give it and that if you try to planify it you are a cheater... its sound as a slot machine!!!!
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djmoody
4 July, 2016, 11:06 AM UTC

Tony Hobson said:


Nemanja said:


Instead of complaining for your loss you should be grateful to Plarium for recent BG algorithm changes. From now on no one will misuse BG's and you won't facing anymore an armies with 40m troops. 

You claim to be only a forum moderator, so where is your evidence that anyone is misusing BG's and receiving armies of 40m troops?
This is total propaganda, a smokescreen to hide the truth


Actually the best leagues have worked out systems that can get you 30m-50m free troops. 

I know that because I have been pretty instrumental in working them out and helping many friends, league mates and allies use them. 

The best one was the original yellow barring system when they introduced guaranteed 10% payouts nearly a year ago. You just went to 125 leaving a trail of yellow bars, got your full payout to get your troops back and then killed all the yellow bars. Done effectively the yellow bars could add 400m/500m+ resource to an account (max number of BG's in those days was 34 - 24+10 from item). Was onto that within about 5 mins of the change.

The update before last took out the guaranteed payouts. So we conjured up another system that 2-3 people found independently within about 24hrs . Less reliable and typically less reward but free troops are free troops right. There are two elements to that one that provide the profit.

I am a bit annoyed that from Plarium's perspective gaining an advantage in a strategy game through better knowledge, skills and experience is deemed "unfair". Clearly the only "fair" advantage in their eyes is instant credit card overpowering.

It's particularly annoying against the backdrop that Plarium have continually tried to made BG's loss making in the Stormfall version of the game. God forbid that 1 of the 3 pillars of gameplay (raiding / BGs / PvP) should actually gain you some kind of reward/troops. 

Fortunately Plarium have now made a system so complex they don't even understand it. They don't actually know what the systems are and how to block them. So the player base (well some of it where the skillful players reside) continues to out smart the evil developer. That gives me immense pleasure btw. Being able to compete and outplay credit card warriors off your own skill, with the deck totally stacked against you, is very very rewarding.

If you want something constructive I would suggest a return to the very original system (still currently deployed in Pirates), were BG's can be run profitable if done normally, with a little knowledge, and there are no tricks for uber immediate profit. Not the best for my league and allies but best for the game as a whole.

Of course I would like the -500m bank on my account to be reset to zero if we are doing that. 

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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djmoody
4 July, 2016, 11:43 AM UTC

PS

There is nothing wrong with yellow barring. Why there should be a crusade against it by Plarium is stupid. 

If you want to control your banking and clear your bank to zero, you pretty much had to yellow bar. If you don't you will nearly always be overloaded and have trapped resource in the bank. And in the old days overloading led to losses, so players needed to yellow bar. For players from that era it would be second nature.

Also as payouts are not guaranteed (and have become less and less so), yellowing barring gave you multiple chances at a full payout once you had loaded to the appropriate level. 

If you kill a lvl 96 and fail and have to kill another to get a payout as suggested you would be approx. 25% overloaded by the end of the second kill (depending on your and balur's troops types/match up). So the way Plarium want it, you lose all control and just have to ride luck and will almost certainly have trapped resource all the time.

Easy solution to yellow barring - just remove the stupid small payouts. Then there is no complicated mechanic that Plarium can fail to understand properly, yielding scenarios for "unfair" profit. Big payout of nothing, easy, simple.

Even fewer people do BG's now than before the small payouts, as the big ones are now so unpredictable to obtain. They clear your bank pushing your away from the big payout. They make bank tracking much more complicated and time consuming. Should you add tax to small payouts, what is the tax rate? How would most players even know where their bank is at to be able to plan their BG's.

The biggest shame is the system is now so complex that a new player just wouldn't have a chance of working it out. Only people who have traveled with the evolution of BG's are going have had a chance to expose the building blocks of knowledge that can let you understand them. That is a crying shame, for a strategy game where curisosity, intelligence and some hard work should be rewarded.
Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
4 July, 2016, 12:18 PM UTC

As I said previously many times, the "yellow bar" strategy is not our target to remove. The thing is that some players used to exploit our game by using some elements of "yellow bar" strategy. 

Unfortunately, the only way to prevent those exploit was to implement these changes, which affected the "yellow bar" strategy. The strategy is still exists, but it's now less effective.

We have no desire in making some hidden changes.Why would we make them, knowing that players will figure out that something changed? 

Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
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djmoody
4 July, 2016, 12:28 PM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


As I said previously many times, the "yellow bar" strategy is not our target to remove. The thing is that some players used to exploit our game by using the elements of "yellow bar" strategy. 

Unfortunately, the only way to prevent those exploit was to implement these changes, which affected the "yellow bar" strategy. The strategy is still exists, but it's now less effective.

We have no desire in making some hidden changes.Why would we make them, knowing that players will figure out that something changed? 

All of that statement is wrong.

If yellow barring no longer adds to the bank until the BG is killed then you have absolutely removed yellow barring from the game. Whether it was your target or not is irrelevant, its what you have achieved. By doing that you have removed players control in doing BG's - legitimate control, not abuse or systems. 

And no it wasnt the ONLY way to remove exploits. I already posted you TWO alternatives:


1) remove the small payouts entirely. It would actually make the system less complex and give you more chance of making them run without profit as you desire. Hint - you have failed by the way, there are still 2 mechanics working for making big profits.

2) move back to the original system that is still used in pirates

Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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carolpringle59
4 July, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC
lies lies lies Every Bg does NOT!!!!!! reward you with units   I do thank you for helping to ruin the Game. BGs are now for the coiners that have money to throw away  And you will not Gain better units. So Much Manure!!!!!
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dworka777
4 July, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

Hello I just read the whole topic and I must say it is really hillarious.

On one side we have CC players who are mad about loosing so hard payed troops. Well I have one sentence to them: "Don't buy the troops you sillies!"

On the other one we have regular players, who are fed up by CC for constantly overpowering them with money.

Well I have great news for you, Plarium doesn't care. All they need is money.

It is obvious from so called "Tournaments" and mostly from Battlegrounds.

So what is the purpose of battlegrounds ? Well back in the days when your troops were leaving you after they found out that you can't feed them, it was a good way how to ensure that all the resources and time invested into those troops will remain in your castle for a small fee + you would upgrade them into higher tier troops. Loosing approx. 5% of the resources  + loosing +/- 25% of the offense/defense points in a proces of upgrading.

Well, still better to loose 5% of resources then 25% or more.

However, Plarium removed this "Leash" and started to tweak more and more the system of BGs.

By removing the food cap, Plarium ensured, that CC players will have even more strength, because they now can buy as many troops as they can leaving regular players in disadvantage.

So they forced regular players to find a way how to make more troops for free to match CC players.

And now again Plarium is punishing regular players for THEIR mistakes!

I am sorry to say this, I don't like when someone is insulting anyone and others are standing aside and even laughing at bullied person. But I am glad they did it.

But YOU reap what you sow. Pretty simple you had it long time coming.

I think this should be a warning and you should start fixing other bugs that are being exploited, so that newly incoming players would not immediately leave!

Also redesigning BG system would be welcome.

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Snowgoon
4 July, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


We have no desire in making some hidden changes.Why would we make them, knowing that players will figure out that something changed? 

You have made a secret change and this player has figured it out, but this particular secret change is to the bg combat algorithm.


How is it possible for 12,904 offense to be beaten by 12,860 defense?




12904 offense - http://prnt.sc/botreh


12860 defense - http://prnt.sc/botsp3



Why does 4,086 defense only kill 3,840 offense?



4086 defense - http://prnt.sc/botv5o


3840 offense - http://prnt.sc/botx84



It does not add up, someone has nerfed the algorithm?

                               ***********************************************************************************************************




Alyona Kolomiitseva said:



The strategy is still exists, but it's now less effective.

You have completely missed the point - A less effective yellow barring strategy is unacceptable - go back to the drawing board




Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
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djmoody
4 July, 2016, 11:16 PM UTC

Tony Hobson said:


Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


We have no desire in making some hidden changes.Why would we make them, knowing that players will figure out that something changed? 

You have made a secret change and this player has figured it out, but this particular secret change is to the bg combat algorithm.


How is it possible for 12,904 offense to be beaten by 12,860 defense?




12904 offense - http://prnt.sc/botreh


12860 defense - http://prnt.sc/botsp3



Why does 4,086 defense only kill 3,840 offense?



4086 defense - http://prnt.sc/botv5o


3840 offense - http://prnt.sc/botx84



It does not add up, someone has nerfed the algorithm?

                               ***********************************************************************************************************




Alyona Kolomiitseva said:



The strategy is still exists, but it's now less effective.

You have completely missed the point - A less effective yellow barring strategy is unacceptable - go back to the drawing board




You have to be careful when quoting the average value of troops.

Orcs will defend with a x3 bonus against the pikemen. The game uses a weighted average to calculate the effective value of the defence against the troop types you have sent.

Quick an easy approximation, multiply by 3 the % of the troops that are orcs and receive a bonus for infantry attacks. For example if 30% of the power of the Balur army is in Orcs, you send pikemen and the base value of the army was 10k then 3k of it will defend at 9k for an effective defence against the army type you sent of 19k. 

Take-away, in offensive BG's choose your unit type very carefully due to the x3 defense bonuses Balur troops have against their strongest troop type match up.

If you know how to do weighted averages and you want to sent multiple unit types then the proper way to do it is to:

- work out separately the power of the defending army against infantry, cavalry, occult and then bestiary.

- then calculate the power of your offensive army in the infantry, cavalry, occult and bestiary and calculate the % in each. 

- you then multiple the vs infantry defence power  by the infantry % in your army, the cavalry by the cavalry % etc etc

- you then add up the values of the 4 calculations to arrive at the weighted average defence against your chosen army type. At that point do you still win?

If you are using spreadsheets sumproduct is a nice shortcut for working out weighted averages.

The numbers you have in the second example are therefore not the right numbers to use. There is a small variance in the defence of archers against each troop type. What you show in the screen show is the average archer defence value against a perfectly even offensive attack. You haven't got the weighted average against the troop mix that balur has sent.

The first example is quite interesting. The spreadsheet you are using does have the correct value for defence against infantry and as you have 100% of your army in infantry that value will be the appropriate weighted average to use (I checked the maths from the calculator you are using and the numbers are correct). Assuming your troops hit with all the bonuses on that are showing in the offence screenshot then you should have won the fight. Does seem to be something a bit odd there.



Everyone has a right to an opinion. No one has a right to their opinion being respected by other if it can't be backed up with rational and logic explanation
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