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The reward system on Battlegrounds is now secure against attempts to obtain Units in an unfair way!

310 Replies
Drogar61
29 June, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

@Alyona,

You said that Plarium solved problem with BG. So, no one can take advantage after change. Why malicious way is still secret?

Simple show us that way and your words will get power. Avoiding right answers, and continually repeating words on which we already reacted will lead us to nowhere.

Simple think for big reward for you and other Plarium's speakers. Isn't it worth?


This was the decision of a Company which I cannot debate or discuss. That is the right answer.
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Inaginni
30 June, 2016, 12:43 AM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


More answers have arrived. 


I understand that it's hard to accept any changes. Especially if they are related to BGs. You have probably mastered them after a long time and after putting so many efforts into them.

However, as we have mentioned, there were some players who were using an exploit. There is a certain way how the BGs should work. But those players have found a vulnerability in the system.

Let me ensure you that you and other fair players who were using this strategy are not among those who have caused this change.

It was a hard decision to change the system when we knew that the changes will affect one of the most popular Infestations strategy. But it was necessary.

We strive to give the same opportunities to all players, and we had to make BGs fair and equal for everyone.

Though you may need some time to adapt, you will soon notice that the new system is exactly the same as it was before, with one minor change which affected only 1-bar strategy.

If you have any other questions, please ask.



Drogar61 said:

@Alyona,

You said that Plarium solved problem with BG. So, no one can take advantage after change. Why malicious way is still secret?

Simple show us that way and your words will get power. Avoiding right answers, and continually repeating words on which we already reacted will lead us to nowhere.

Simple think for big reward for you and other Plarium's speakers. Isn't it worth?

Since I don't like seeing Alyona being ganged up on when she's right, I'll inform you all that I have recently heard certain details about the previous exploit, and this change does seem to have affected it. Although, from what I understand, it would have affected the method more if the bgs were still as they were at the beginning of the year (effectively guaranteed small payouts upon breaking a bg).

Other than that, I just want to put out the thought that it might be that the developer just answer our questions that she passes on directly, without any additional context. If that was the case, she wouldn't be able to give us specifics on some of our follow up questions. Also, if that's the case, she's not necessarily the one that should be receiving our ire.

Edit: Forgot to address why it is probably still secret. This exploit was EXTREMELY powerful. Someone going in as a medium-sized hammer/ wall could end up being tremendously huge (as an example, think about going from 10 mil off to 80 mil off in one week). I can imagine that Plarium doesn't want any details of this released, as it could be possible in future version of the bgs to extrapolate this technique to exploit them.
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Drogar61
30 June, 2016, 2:48 AM UTC

@Inaginni,

I believe that Alyona hasn't need advocate. She is strong and smart enough to answer in her name, and Plarium's name.

Except your doubt, and imagination, you also didn't show answer. And that is expected and acceptable because you heard just rumors, don't know truth.

Your story about 80 M? Come on.

Plarium could make only one mistake with BG, and made it - you could become negative in bank. But how much negative? -70 M? No chance.

You could fill bank for longer time, preparing (yellowing) tasks. So in the best scenario you could yellowed all tasks, and put inside huge amount of troops. Your troops. Let say that level 55 is average with about 20 M resources each. If all tasks are yellowed that means that you have chance to get full payout of 100 M and 59 * 5 M from the rest. You already invested at least 105 M (mentioned huge amount). So in the ideal situation you can get about 300 M resources, or 13.6 K Dragons. 80 M? NO.

On the other side such exhibitionism will demand from you about 315 M resources to put back in BG before next full payout - or to translate, you will never get full payout again. If there was a bug somewhere in banking that could be fixed without changing anything in BG.

In last change there is one very ugly secret. You cant get next full payout when you expect. You should to get payout when your bank is filled. But because you have to put previous payout + tax get payout before you get new one. If this isn't true, and if you can get payout before you spend previous payout, then you are in old yellowing way.

BUT, on emptied bank (not possible, just to show problem) with all new tasks, very soon with full payouts you will yellow all tasks, because one full payout is enough to yellow 4 similar tasks. So we have about 15 full payouts and after that we will be in all yellowed tasks. What is changed?

Plarium took from us possibility of planning, and on that way many players will put whole armies in BG and they will not be able to get full payout, until some (secret) point, for them totally accidentally. Solution to get back troops will be long time building or short time buying.

Maybe, I'm wrong and missing something. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, for sure. This is just to stop story about 80 M.

If something was really wrong and Plarium solved that that they never will allow to same thing exist again (about your future), and there is no need for secret.

If ... very simple, public that and everyone will say thank you.

But if nothing was bug, then this change is very ugly suprise for players.

On one or another way, we, or at least me, will get answer.

P.S.: You still can have negative balance in BG, but that is terrible position for next task. And always was.

UTC +0:00
Inaginni
30 June, 2016, 12:22 PM UTC

Drogar61 said:


@Inaginni,

I believe that Alyona hasn't need advocate. She is strong and smart enough to answer in her name, and Plarium's name.

Except your doubt, and imagination, you also didn't show answer. And that is expected and acceptable because you heard just rumors, don't know truth.

Your story about 80 M? Come on.

Plarium could make only one mistake with BG, and made it - you could become negative in bank. But how much negative? -70 M? No chance.

You could fill bank for longer time, preparing (yellowing) tasks. So in the best scenario you could yellowed all tasks, and put inside huge amount of troops. Your troops. Let say that level 55 is average with about 20 M resources each. If all tasks are yellowed that means that you have chance to get full payout of 100 M and 59 * 5 M from the rest. You already invested at least 105 M (mentioned huge amount). So in the ideal situation you can get about 300 M resources, or 13.6 K Dragons. 80 M? NO.

On the other side such exhibitionism will demand from you about 315 M resources to put back in BG before next full payout - or to translate, you will never get full payout again. If there was a bug somewhere in banking that could be fixed without changing anything in BG.

In last change there is one very ugly secret. You cant get next full payout when you expect. You should to get payout when your bank is filled. But because you have to put previous payout + tax get payout before you get new one. If this isn't true, and if you can get payout before you spend previous payout, then you are in old yellowing way.

BUT, on emptied bank (not possible, just to show problem) with all new tasks, very soon with full payouts you will yellow all tasks, because one full payout is enough to yellow 4 similar tasks. So we have about 15 full payouts and after that we will be in all yellowed tasks. What is changed?

Plarium took from us possibility of planning, and on that way many players will put whole armies in BG and they will not be able to get full payout, until some (secret) point, for them totally accidentally. Solution to get back troops will be long time building or short time buying.

Maybe, I'm wrong and missing something. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, for sure. This is just to stop story about 80 M.

If something was really wrong and Plarium solved that that they never will allow to same thing exist again (about your future), and there is no need for secret.

If ... very simple, public that and everyone will say thank you.

But if nothing was bug, then this change is very ugly suprise for players.

On one or another way, we, or at least me, will get answer.

P.S.: You still can have negative balance in BG, but that is terrible position for next task. And always was.

You're correct about the negative bank. I was told that the technique makes it so you cannot do bgs again due to how negative it becomes (hence why some that knew about it didn't do it for, as DJmoody said a while back, bgs are a large chunk of the game), but just forgot to include the detail. Also, I didn't say what I heard was a rumor. ;)

I would also say that when anyone is getting ganged up on for reasons of disbelief, that they should be supported if they are correct.

Considering my level of understanding for bgs, I can say it is definitely possible that the technique could be expanded on in some way to make a similar one.

To finish, the 80M "story", as you referred to it, actually is not a story for sure. This is confirmed. That is why I included it as an example.

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Drogar61
30 June, 2016, 12:39 PM UTC

Confirmed? How? Where is the proof? Explanation? Anything.

Share with us such things.
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Falcon
30 June, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

Innagini,


The intention wasn't to harass her. But when a major change happens with explanations as small as that, p(l)aying customers do tend to get annoyed, especially when there are statements like "you should be grateful plarium did this". Getting a few answers straight from the horse's mouth is all is expected. 
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Snowgoon
30 June, 2016, 7:13 PM UTC

Garbage in, garbage out - the first rule of programming

This exploit has not been fixed, it has been botched


There were many ways of filling your resource banks, and yellow lining was only one way - we know many players who simply buy sapphires to revive lost units, and there are many who deliberately send defensive units to offensive bg and visa versa .. but there has never been any method to increase your strength without sacrificing huge armies. If such a method existed, then devs should have found a different method to patch the gaping holes in the code.


The recent Anniversary BG Tournament may be a prime example of this 'unfair exploit' being used. The winner spent sapphires, but 3rd place went to a mysterious new player who reached level 84 in 4 weeks - does that seem suspicious?

http://prnt.sc/bn5uzt

http://prnt.sc/bn5wo7


So, plarium's answer to this was to re-design our banking system, even tho they swore never to do this.

We no longer have one bank - we now seem to have many mini-banks added


It would appear that all newly weakened battlegrounds now have their own mini-bank, which continues to fill until the bg is completed.
It seemd to me that this will only invite new exploits as players will learn to super-saturate one or two high-level weakened battlegrounds to receive huge payouts

Active bot accounts could easily keep filling an offensive battleground with an infinite amount of defensive units without ever killing a single balur unit - and get an infinite number of experience points too .... then complete the bg for a super-payout


Back to the drawing board, plarium .... perhaps it would have been better to banish the active bots, scammers, hackers and alt accounts that fill our map daily


Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
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Inaginni
30 June, 2016, 8:20 PM UTC

Drogar61 said:


Confirmed? How? Where is the proof? Explanation? Anything.

Share with us such things.

Well I tried, so I'll just leave it here then. It seems you are a person who cannot believe something without seeing proof, which is a good attitude to have and is mine as well, but I am unwilling to do so given the power of this exploit.

It would be a disservice to my leaguemates if something was developed from it, as well as to the person who told me about it.

As such, this is the best I can do for the player base and I will have to leave it up to everyone's own judgment when they review our conversation.

Falcon said:


Innagini,


The intention wasn't to harass her. But when a major change happens with explanations as small as that, p(l)aying customers do tend to get annoyed, especially when there are statements like "you should be grateful plarium did this". Getting a few answers straight from the horse's mouth is all is expected. 

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. All of us should realize that Alyona is, for better or worse, some form of representation we have with Plarium, in that she passes things along for us. Does she have things she can improve on? Absolutely. Is she deserving of the targeted anger she regularly receives? No. I've been a bystander watching it happen and had reached my limit on it. Hence why I commented on it.

I think quite a few of us realize that it is not so much a problem we have with Alyona as what the devs tell her/ allow her to tell us. As you say, changing this towards greater transparency would help.

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IronApex Turok
30 June, 2016, 8:31 PM UTC

Inaginni said:



Since I don't like seeing Alyona being ganged up on when she's right, I'll inform you all that I have recently heard certain details about the previous exploit, and this change does seem to have affected it. Although, from what I understand, it would have affected the method more if the bgs were still as they were at the beginning of the year (effectively guaranteed small payouts upon breaking a bg).

Other than that, I just want to put out the thought that it might be that the developer just answer our questions that she passes on directly, without any additional context. If that was the case, she wouldn't be able to give us specifics on some of our follow up questions. Also, if that's the case, she's not necessarily the one that should be receiving our ire.

Edit: Forgot to address why it is probably still secret. This exploit was EXTREMELY powerful. Someone going in as a medium-sized hammer/ wall could end up being tremendously huge (as an example, think about going from 10 mil off to 80 mil off in one week). I can imagine that Plarium doesn't want any details of this released, as it could be possible in future version of the bgs to extrapolate this technique to exploit them.

You sound like a developer. how do you have such inside knowledge?


and if thats all Alyona knew, why not just say that?  why talk in circles and lie and cover for plarium?
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Snowgoon
30 June, 2016, 9:05 PM UTC

There is only one question that needs to be answered .....


Is it possible for any player to get more than they have paid in?


If not, then this is not an exploit, regardless of imagined payout sizes

If so, then plarium devs need to find a much better method of plugging this 'loophole'


Facebook players have been getting massive payouts for years - they even have their own facebook group page - all of these payouts have been legitimate

http://prntscr.com/bn7xiy

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
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zach-rose11
30 June, 2016, 9:50 PM UTC
I cannot stand the BG's!!!! I am constantly losing way more than ever gaining and I'm talking about starting with 1k pike's and ending with a net gain of maybe 40 warlocks and some pike's and paladins . Just doesn't seem correct. Even though I won't quit doing them ;p I just wish it was different. Like maybe up the resource payout on every BG or something, because it just doesn't actually seem smart to even touch them, it's like trying to win the lottery :( 
UTC +5:00
Drogar61
30 June, 2016, 10:32 PM UTC

No proof, no explanation, nothing. Yes, I'm ready to  leave it up to everyone's own judgment.

Alyona alone, without anybody's pressure, started with explanations and answers. Some of them she asked herself, and answer on them. On some of our questions she made answers.

I made question, and I didn't get answer. Maybe I don't deserve answer, or maybe answer doesn't exist. But all of that is part of relation between Alyona and me. Please don't spoil that next time.

Back to the main goal of this thread:

With my posts I tried to warn the others, but I didn't know how new rules can be really ugly.

Really ugly!


Next is my current situation:

Last full payout I took on 59. level - about 23 M resources.

In bank I have about 90 M resources.

Last 18 solved tasks without full payout, including tasks from 28., 27. and 17. levels in last 5.

If I'm liar I will never write new post except one for apology.

If I'm not liar than something is wrong with next

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


Drogar61 said:


On this way, again without any announcing, you put players with yellowed BGs in new problem. 

Your current yellowed BGs won't be affected by the change.
It seems that many things are affected by this change. Maybe accidentally.

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Inaginni
30 June, 2016, 10:35 PM UTC

IronApex Turok said:


Inaginni said:



Since I don't like seeing Alyona being ganged up on when she's right, I'll inform you all that I have recently heard certain details about the previous exploit, and this change does seem to have affected it. Although, from what I understand, it would have affected the method more if the bgs were still as they were at the beginning of the year (effectively guaranteed small payouts upon breaking a bg).

Other than that, I just want to put out the thought that it might be that the developer just answer our questions that she passes on directly, without any additional context. If that was the case, she wouldn't be able to give us specifics on some of our follow up questions. Also, if that's the case, she's not necessarily the one that should be receiving our ire.

Edit: Forgot to address why it is probably still secret. This exploit was EXTREMELY powerful. Someone going in as a medium-sized hammer/ wall could end up being tremendously huge (as an example, think about going from 10 mil off to 80 mil off in one week). I can imagine that Plarium doesn't want any details of this released, as it could be possible in future version of the bgs to extrapolate this technique to exploit them.

You sound like a developer. how do you have such inside knowledge?


and if thats all Alyona knew, why not just say that?  why talk in circles and lie and cover for plarium?

Lol I wish I was a dev that played on the public server. My castle would be quite pimped by this point.

Nah, besides the actual exploit, the rest are my thoughts on the matter. I've known people in similar positions to Alyona's so I just have a bit more of an insider view is all.

As for your question about talking in circles, it would probably be case two that I listed up above (devs telling her she can only give out certain pieces of info). You might have missed that post since I only put it out recently, about 11 mins before yours xD. Remember this is a job for her. Disobeying your boss is not a good way to keep a job.

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Stewart_KT1
1 July, 2016, 8:59 AM UTC

The pays are still there, Just go about the job a little differently.


http://prnt.sc/bneid6


Its there, pay attention.

Noodle maker extreme
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Drogar61
1 July, 2016, 10:44 AM UTC

Stewart_KT1 said:


The pays are still there, Just go about the job a little differently.


http://prnt.sc/bneid6


Its there, pay attention.

Ty. I'm not worried. I'll find solution, as always I did, spec in BG (not too hard). But that is warning for players with less amount of troops, and that exist point in time when player have to stop and make some plan.

Also, that is big change in BG, not as announced :)
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Snowgoon
1 July, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


More answers have arrived. 


I understand that it's hard to accept any changes. Especially if they are related to BGs. You have probably mastered them after a long time and after putting so many efforts into them.

However, as we have mentioned, there were some players who were using an exploit. There is a certain way how the BGs should work. But those players have found a vulnerability in the system.

Let me ensure you that you and other fair players who were using this strategy are not among those who have caused this change.

It was a hard decision to change the system when we knew that the changes will affect one of the most popular Infestations strategy. But it was necessary.

We strive to give the same opportunities to all players, and we had to make BGs fair and equal for everyone.

Though you may need some time to adapt, you will soon notice that the new system is exactly the same as it was before, with one minor change which affected only 1-bar strategy.

If you have any other questions, please ask.

So, so sad that Total Domination players got a better explanation and a (tiny) apology - http://prnt.sc/bnha0b

Where is OUR apology???

http://plarium.com/forum/en/total-domination/news-and-announcements/topics/the-reward-system-on-infestations-is-now-secure-against-unfair-play-/


Reading the Total Domination forum makes things a bit clearer, but I still do not understand why plarium chose to nerf our banking system without totally removing negative banking to give the SUPERBONUS

It seems obvious that all they have done is create new mini-banks in every yellowed bg which forces us to pay double TAX on rewards


This is another example of an unacceptable knee-jerk reaction to a tiny number of players who gained a bit more than plarium expected.
I am still not convinced that ANYONE got more out than they paid in - all they got was the superbonus, which has ALWAYS been a legitimate payout - http://plarium.com/forum/en/total-domination/news-and-announcements/topics/the-reward-system-on-infestations-is-now-secure-against-unfair-play-/3/#140223/


p,s. Deleting my previous posts will not add to your trustworthyness

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way - Pink Floyd - http://prnt.sc/dv923b
UTC +0:00
IronApex Turok
2 July, 2016, 9:00 AM UTC

chuck norris doesnt send troops into the battlegrounds. he just stares at them until they give the rewards he wants.



i have yet to see plarium fix this exploit.
UTC +0:00
Nemanja
2 July, 2016, 9:29 AM UTC

My Lords,

I think it would be great to have one legendary unit which could destroy at least some of the troops hidden in catacombs.
Nemanja
UTC +1:00
jmcnamee
2 July, 2016, 4:57 PM UTC

jmcnamee said:


jmcnamee said:


The new system does not work as advertised.  I have completed a number of BG's without receiving troops as a reward.


It's possible only if you had zero losses on them.
I'm sorry but I think you're mistaken.   I have had many low level BG's which I won, but suffered losses, and without receiving troops as a reward.

I assume that you see the problem (which is not that you are being dishonest with us), but:


  1)  First, Plarium says: "Henceforth, every time you successfully attack a Battleground you shall receive Units!."  This sentence is still on the page  that Plarium used to introduce the changes;


  2)  When it is quite apparent that some BG attacks do not generate troop rewards, you say, that's because the player had zero losses.  This seems to contradict the statement in paragraph 1;


  3)  But the statement in paragraph 2 is wrong as well.  Many of us have experienced losses on BG's that we have won without a troop reward.  This contradicts both paragraph 1 and paragraph 2.


In the circumstances, can you blame some players for thinking that they are not getting the straight goods on the changes.  If they are given, twice, the wrong information, perhaps they can be forgiven for wondering about the accuracy of the other information as well.


Just saying.

UTC +5:00
exxxe
2 July, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

guys winning a good payout from BG's has always been a hard thing to do that is not new 

i guess that with this update BG's have not changed that much such that 

 winning a BG with unit losses you will always  earn some  units back ( i played BG today this is true) however :-


a) the units rewarded will not be bigger or better( in terms of total power) than the units lost because you also earn exp points, resources, hero items, tournament points and others (note that this was always the case even before the update)

b) no losses no reward (same also before the update)

c) the bank is still there all you have to do is to adapt and find a better strategy ( that is the only thing the update affected)


so in my point of view the update only requires some players to find a new strategy to play BG and this has always been hard since the beginning of the game 





I'am me and that is what i care about :)
UTC +3:00
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