Defence is useless

20 Replies
Laboyd
28 November, 2017, 7:07 PM UTC

Don't want to upset the snowflakes

UTC +4:00
3
Bill Almorra
Moderator
28 November, 2017, 7:36 PM UTC

It all depends on your units and those of the attacker. For example if you defend with 10,000 Javelineers against 3,000 Spartan Promachos, even if the attacker has less, he will win the battle.

Theoretically (for the combat report) : 10,000/9627 VS 3,000/112

Look at the power of your units and not their quantity. 


A lost battle is a battle that is believed to be lost
UTC +1:00
2
Ricardo
28 November, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

There are many bonuses that can be used in units, which is difficult to know the losses with the number of troops.

UTC +1:00
0
Helena
28 November, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC
I can't really see the problem, it is normal that the one who's defendine does lose more units than the attacker, but of course it depends on what units the defender and attacker use. In your case the attacker use a strong unit type, specially if it's upgraded. If it were maxed it would have it's offencive points at 3 mill, if your defencive troops had lower defence points than 3 mill, he will win. 
For the glory of Roman Empire!
UTC +1:00
0
IOANNIS TSIAMANTANIS
28 November, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC
UTC +2:00
4
Helena
28 November, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC
IOANNIS TSIAMANTANIS said:

Where did you find this one?
For the glory of Roman Empire!
UTC +1:00
0
Drag-Theseus
Moderator
28 November, 2017, 10:12 PM UTC
Maybe he made himself this table. If so, awesome job 
I'm just Time Lord....
UTC +7:00
0
IOANNIS TSIAMANTANIS
29 November, 2017, 1:49 AM UTC
Helena said:

IOANNIS TSIAMANTANIS said:

Where did you find this one?
I made it myself ...
UTC +2:00
1
tsunwu85rsa
29 November, 2017, 6:31 AM UTC

Actually, defense is more powerful than offense when defending your city.

Consider this example:

1 Thureo has 500 defense versus phalanx attack (ignoring all boosters).

1 Promacho has 900 offense (ignoring all boosters).

Based on the above, if he attacks with 1 Promacho and you defend with 2 Thureo it is close to an even battle, but slightly in the defender's favor with 1000 total defense versus 900 total offense. Look at the BASE resource cost and BASE building time of 2 Thureo compared to 1 Promacho - it is not that different. As already pointed out to you, you should not look at unit count - what you should look at is defense/offense per unit, resource cost per unit and building time per unit.

The home advantage then swings the above battle in your favor - when city defense bonus (which boosts the stats of your troops defending your city) is added, and if you take into account that you can revive 30% of your losses incurred when defending your own city for free, you come out ahead.

OBVIOUSLY if the attacker overwhelms you with power, you won't come out ahead.

UTC +7:00
0
Ashu
29 November, 2017, 8:19 AM UTC

Laboyd said:


I just had an attack from 3000 sarrs troops that wiped out almost 10000 of mine including the highest levels!  I had extra def on and in total about 33000 troops in total.  How is it possible for this small army to have such an impact on me in my own city?????


This game is so badly set up that a few off troops can destroy as many def troops as you want to lose.


After all this time I think I may find something else to waste my time on.

3000 Sarrisophoros could make such an impact on your defense because its offense supercedes the phalanx stats of almost all defensive units in the game except the Mounted Petlast(which is higher only by 5), Legates, Elephants and Fire Catapults. That means most of your/everyone's defensive units are not capable to handle the sarrisophoros alone, they need to group up.


For Example-

To take down 1 Sarrisophoros atleast 41 Javelineers are needed.

He lost 1/3 of his army and you lost 2/3 of yours, to compare the army's strength, take the ratio of the numerator from both sides, which is 1:2 in this case.

In plain words, it means that your total defensive phalanx strength was approximately twice strong than the enemy's offensive strength.

So, now if your defense consisted of only Javelineers, you would need '2,44,004' of them to defend and you would be losing '80,440' javs to defeat '2011' sarrisophoros.(These are approximate figures due to hidden unkown factors implied in calculation by plarium making the actual figure vary)


City Defense Bonus?

It does help in increasing defense, but like other enhancers, it is also an enhancer only, so your defense advantage is limited to the enhancement it provides, you can calculate the advantage by simply applying the formula-

Defense Stat + ('Defense stat' X (CDB/10000)) = Total Defense
Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
1
Dimitri Molchanov
Community Manager
29 November, 2017, 8:48 AM UTC

Very good responses from everyone, I am impressed! Defense can be very formidable indeed, especially when based in a strong City that provides them with bonuses. And three thousand Sarissophoroi comprise a powerful force in its own right. 


However, I have found records of this battle you speak of and would like to address a few things. First, you have won and inflicted casualties of two thousand on the Sarissophoroi, which is very impressive. Secondly, the number of losses you suffered is so high because of the following:


1) Many Offense units were in the garrison, so it is hardly surprising you have lost thousands of them. They do not do well when defending, that is part of the basic tutorial and does not change throughout the game. 

2) The majority of losses among Defense units that you suffered are taken up by Light Infantry. These do not do well against Phalanx attackers. 


I hope this brings some clarification into the matter and helps you avoid suffering casualties of this magnitude in the future 


UTC +2:00
2
woad
29 November, 2017, 10:12 AM UTC
Putting aside the mathematics for a minute, consider this as well, if the battle occurred in your city you have the opportunity to recover 100% of your losses, 30% for free from the infirmary, and the remaining 70% with drachma. So, while you feel you may have lost more than you should, it is actually a win for you as your enemy can only revive 70% of his losses, the other 30% are gone like they never existed. So, simply put, when you defended you knew it was coming and chose to do so, and that means you should prepare beforehand if possible by having a reserve of drachma to revive your losses beyond the 30% free revival. Losing troops outside of one's city is not the best economy of troops, simply because of the 30% of dead troops that are not available to revive. Even, as someone said here earlier, even if you attack with overwhelming force all troops that are lost are subject to this rule of battle here. If, for example, as it was stated, you killed over 2000k of those phalanx, then somewhere around 600 of them are lost forever no effort on the part of your enemy will get those back. While this game is tilted toward offense, defense does have it strategic value if used correctly. Remember though, defense lost outside of your city is subject to the same 30% rule as offensive troops are. But, think of defending as a long-term strategy, particularly with an enemy you fight often with. You can use your offense to antagonize him/her into attacking you, and your defense to kill his offensive troops and in the long-haul, you will eventually prevail, provided you prepare for it by having the reserve to revive your troops and fighting in your own city on your terms.
UTC +0:00
0
APOLLO'S GLORY
29 November, 2017, 12:02 PM UTC

Another large factor is your City defense bonus or CBD, how much do you have?  Each CDB represents .01% in defense bonus which sounds small but adds up quickly.  For example, if your CDB is 10,000 then you have a 100% increase in defense bonus for all troops in your city, both your's and your teammates. 


If your sporting the free tower, gate and wall and nothing more, defending your city is essentially a joke
BACK TO BACK WORLD WAR CHAMPIONS
UTC +5:00
0
Ashu
29 November, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC


Take into consideration these stats and not number of units while calculating strength of the army defense.


I believe the emporia's are empty because when a tournament is on, the attackers are on the lookout to earn pvp.


As i stated earlier, only 4 troops have higher defense against the offense of sarrisophoros, which are Mounted Petlast(which is higher only by 5), Legates, Elephants and Fire Catapults. And i beleive these units were not in large numbers in your city.

Look at a Diamond, the hardest thing in the world, yet so transparent
UTC +5:00
0
APOLLO'S GLORY
30 November, 2017, 2:11 AM UTC

Laboyd said:


Towers, gates and walls are just a waste as well since they offer such little def points. A couple of mid range troops can easily take them out no matter how many you have


This is the dumbest thing i've heard. Like I said every CDB gives you .01% increase in defense. What part of this is difficult to understand?  A CDB of 10,000 = 100% increase in base defense for troops sitting inside your city.  

Mounted pelt 587.5 x 2 = 1175

Anyway some very good points made in here but unfortunatelyI don't think you'll listen.


BACK TO BACK WORLD WAR CHAMPIONS
UTC +5:00
0
woad
30 November, 2017, 5:18 AM UTC

One of the first things one needs to understand about playing this game is to leave emotion out of it. Right now, you are upset that you lost troops, understandable and annoying, but do not discount what others here are saying, Apollo's Glory is right CDB in significant, and Ashu pointing out the type of troops used. In the final analysis, one of two things happened in the fight, you saw him coming and committed your troops, or you did not and had them out to defend your city. Either way, the battle happened and you did kill a significant amount of some strong offensive troops. Because of that loss on your opponents part, you actually won the fight, whether the raid succeeded or not. Why? Because of the 30% rule that applies to losing troops outside your city, he did and you did not. The only downside for you would be if you had not prepared beforehand, and did not have a reserve of drachma to revive every single one of the troops you lost. If that had been the way it went you would have been more satisfied with the outcome. Try to take the long-term view of this, because I do not know about you, but I will take 100% versus 70% anytime. Hopefully, your opponent was not able to revive his remaining 70%, leaving you further ahead.

Your emporia example is flawed in that it is subject to the 30% troop loss off the top rule that applies to any troops lost outside your city. I value my hard earned troops and I too hate losing them, and like anyone I sometimes let emotion get the upper-hand, but if you employ this strategy consistently, you will in the long haul prevail.

One more thing, and not really related to this topic in particular, but in a way has a bearing. Each action we take in the game, means we are making choices, and some choices are better than others. So when you mentioned putting troops outside your city to gain PVP, unless you are trading weaker troops for stronger troops, the ones gained in the tournament are, for example, stronger than the ones that died outside your city in the emporia, you are losing ground. Losing more for less, stronger for weaker, is not the economy of troops you are seeking.

I can easily see the previous poster's analytical assessments and approach to trying to answer your questions, and I wish I too possessed those skills, but I try to keep it simple, and long ago figured out that fighting inside my city was much more in my interest than fighting outside it. We all use what avenues the game gives us and this ability to revive 100% seems to me much more appealing than losing 30% of my dead troops.

I can say that in well over the 3 years of consecutive gameplay it has stood the test of time and troop numbers in my army. Also, I think everyone one of the posters were trying to help by explaining their views of the situation that you described, and when the heat of the battle is over it may be you will be more receptive to their input. I wish you well, and having played this long, there are many things that do not always make logical sense here, but as I said use what you can and leave the rest.

UTC +0:00
1
tsunwu85rsa
2 December, 2017, 10:22 AM UTC

Hi Laboyd,

I believe city defense bonus was already explained in this thread. 

City defense bonus is incredibly valuable. The towers on their own do very little.  Your towers (like your walls) add city defense bonus to your defending troops' statistics. There are few things in this game (that cost drachma) that makes as much difference as high city defense bonus.

Currently your perception of defense is off. The people who have posted here do not care to argue about whether defense is useless or not, or whether you are wrong or not, because they know the answer. They are posting to try and help you. Therefore, do away with negative outlook you've got now, and read and understand the information in this thread with an open mind. 

There is very valuable (game-winning) knowledge described in here, that takes a long time to understand if you have to figure it out and learn it on your own.

Regards

Tsunwu

UTC +7:00
0
Dimitri Molchanov
Community Manager
4 December, 2017, 8:51 AM UTC
Laboyd said:

This game is based on algorisms and in my opinion they are off when it comes to defense.  I don't care if you agree with me or not!
Please re-read my post, I have already pointed out that the majority of your casualties were weak Light Infantry Units - which are designed to be cannon fodder for lack of better term - and Offense Units that had no business staying out in defense in the first place. There is nothing wrong with the algorithm, in this case it worked exactly as expected and as the game tutorial explained. 
UTC +2:00
0
tsunwu85rsa
4 December, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC
Laboyd said:

This game is based on algorisms and in my opinion they are off when it comes to defense.  I don't care if you agree with me or not!
I predict the day will come when you complain that offense is useless :-)
UTC +7:00
0
Bill Almorra
Moderator
4 December, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

Please calm down, sir. You have lost troops but you are neither the first nor the last.

Again, look at the power you have, not the number of units.  You lost a lot of units, but were your units light or heavy ?

All the players who answer you help you to understand the mechanics of the game. It is the same mechanics for everyone, so you are in no way at a disadvantage.

A lost battle is a battle that is believed to be lost
UTC +1:00
1
1777840 users registered; 48057 topics; 286102 posts; our newest member:tutacamon