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Still trying to figure out Persian Positions

Still trying to figure out Persian Positions

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Apr 25, 2018, 03:2304/25/18
01/11/15
22

Still trying to figure out Persian Positions


UPDATING the first post with my clarification I posted further down the thread:

I feel a need to clarify the point of my post.

I do not believe the PP system is broken, to the contrary I believe it works exactly as the Dev's have intended.

I just wanted to voice publicly, a final acknowledgement to myself, that playing PP is a net loss activity. I really wanted to believe you could at least break even, but that is not the case. Granted there were a few payouts that had just a little gain over the loss it took to earn them, but most payouts definitely were worth less the the value of troops lost.

But I think this is by design. If the system ever gave out more then it took, in theory you could continually grow without having to put anything additional in...my hope and error was thinking you could break even, but I suspect there is always a 10-5% loss, on average. Even when you get that awesome big payout ("impressive rewards" as Dmitri stated)...If you added up all your partial payouts, and tallied all your losses to get to that point, generally you still walked away with less than what you put in, if only slightly, but just enough to maintain the illusion that you are gaining.

I also have to comment on the "convert troops" proposition that always gets mentioned. In truth, it is generally only useful for lower level players who do not have higher agreements signed and struggle with grain. In that instance, converting low to higher tier troops is useful. The truth is that you are better off just building the higher tier troops and not converting the lower troops to them. At higher gaming levels, its nice to have loads of lights and heavies around because if the enemy is stacked with Phalanx and Cav def, nothing is more satisfying then hitting them with a ton of LIGHTS and watching the def suffer a massive inefficiency. Some people think, "yeah well you build lights faster than Cavs!" Not really true, if you baseline everything, all Offensive units build roughly 8 off points per minute (some 7.96), so you build OFF stats the same if you are building Agema or swords. The only benefit of swords over agema is they are cheaper in res units, BUT if you invest them in PP, that is very inefficient because swords only invest 60 res units per minute, where as Promachos invest 93 res units per minute, and Agema 115.6. So its actually inefficient to use lights and heavies to invest in PP for higher tier units because they invest at a much lower rate (res per build minute), requiring a lot more boosts. Add to that the 5-10% loss you take in the conversion..you may as well build the swords and use them to hit cities and pantheons stacked with Thureos and M. pelts instead. It is a more efficient use of their value. One can argue that you can at least use the light and heavy build ques, in parallel to your Phalxn and Cavs to add to your high level troops in PP, that is true, its inefficient, but true. 

No, I think the only value of PP is that its a lower cost method of building your army, then just boosting or buying units. Because every unit you send to die, gets added to your bank, (as opposed to lost permanently when doing PVP battles). And once added to the bank, eventually in a payout you will get them back. BUT then you can revive that unit at a 50% discount (or 75% with the healer), and voila, you are adding to your army at a (slightly less due to the house PP losses) than 50 (or 75)% discount. That is much cheaper than buying the units you want, and much faster then boosting the builds. This is the real value of PP. BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE REVIVING UNITS you send to die. IF you never revive units you send to PP to die, then you are gaining nothing and eventually will lose your army, because with every position cleared, its lost a little value to the house. (PS: TIP, the best units to use in PP and revive, if you are using the Res unit system to track PP, are the S. PIke, GS Warrior and Carthagian horsemen, my opinion anyway, based soley on known math...who knows what the PP algorithm does in the background...., As PAR1 stated, take nothing for granted).  

ORIGINAL FIRST POST:

After years of tracking this system..it still seems like an overall loss system.

Over the last 200+ positions I have cleared, and tracking nearly every single unit lost and gained.....I am now, in the whole, at a cumulative loss of 139,417,560 resource units.  Meaning every big payout, (and small payouts combined) is usually worth a few million less in resource units than what I lost to get it back.  The bank never gives, it may loan, but you always pay more back then you'll ever get out.


 I'm becoming a firm believer that there is nothing to be gained playing persian positions other than general gear, scrolls, and the fact that if you play it and revive your troops at 50% (or 75%), it is cheaper to build your army than buying the troops outright, even with the constant bleed of resource units with each payout.

  I never believed you could get ahead playing persian positions, but now I do not think you can even break even with persian positions anymore.



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Comments
15
Comments
Apr 25, 2018, 03:4904/25/18
01/10/15
12
Persian positions are a waste of time unless you want to trade low units for better ones...You will never gain more than you lost unless you revive the lost units. They deny changing them , but they did.. Best thing is NOT to do them!!
MariusAdmin
Apr 25, 2018, 09:0904/25/18
09/04/17
2719
Persian positions are certainly a tricky matter. There are multiple guides on the matter that other players created and many threads discussing them. I have seen some interesting strategies being posted in those threads, so perhaps browsing them might give you some useful perspective. There is no one correct answer, of course, and some indeed use Positions to "convert" lower tier Units into more powerful ones. Others manage to gain very impressive rewards by using tricks and tactics that they alone know. Ultimately, it is up to you to draw your strategy according to the information you have and the challenges that you are facing.
Apr 25, 2018, 13:1204/25/18
Apr 25, 2018, 13:20(edited)
08/21/14
1028

persian position was changed again,and we are not informed about that,something is really wrong after 175lvl,i lost a lot troops,finished huge number of positions,got funny payouts.i ask cm,and others from plarium to tell me my pp bank,or to check what is wrong there,no one from plarium wanted to help me in any way,but when VIP player ask for his pp bank,he receive pp bank with smile on plariums face.i dont know enough words on english to explain how mad and angry i am.i didnt ask one time,i ask many times,got answer they dont do that,they dont share those kinds of information with other players.when i quote posts from forum where ex cm Alyona,with huge smile on her face giving info to VIP player(my friend) about his pp bank,they delete my post.when i post pp bank info from same VIP player(who is my friend and sended me that pp bank info received from ex cm) i get answer how cm doesnt have power to check pp bank info,at same time VIP agent tell how only cm can check pp bank info.how strange is that?ex cm could do that,and new cm cant do it(i think he dont want to help me,because i am not VIP and i complain for all bad changes in game in last few years,and publicly claim that all changes is made only for plariums better profit,and that is only what is important in this game,only money).general and general items,are made just to force players to play persians because of general bonuses.there are only 2 kind of players in this game,VIP and others,VIP are important,because they spend a lot of money,and all others are not important to plarium.coiners just send their troops to die on pp,during 75% healer,and then revive their troops on 75% discount and they became monsters,and others cant do nothing about that,only to hide or to be killed.

before,someone from plarium side,answer how all players have same treatment and are equally  important for them,here is crystal clear example:75% healer was announced(as usual only to VIP players,by their agents,other players live in ignorance),and when a lot coiners complained about canceling 75% healer,on forum,to VIP agents......after few hours.....poof there is 75% healer o.O

if i knew how plarium gonna treat me,after 1341 every day playing,i wouldnt play this game at all.

amok Tonaya 

Apr 25, 2018, 13:3504/25/18
Apr 25, 2018, 13:44(edited)
08/22/15
31

pps are supposed to be unfathomable. the fact that we don't get guaranteed results doesn't mean that they aren't working correctly. There are various theories & tactics players choose to adopt to get results, none are gospel & shouldn't be taken for granted. When we hear players complain about pps not behaving as they expect it means nothing other than they can't accept it's beyond their control & beyond the realms of what we think we already know . 

i've learned two important lessons from pp over the years....

1) take nothing for granted

2) approach them with an open mind
Apr 25, 2018, 15:1404/25/18
10/18/15
16
still trying to figure them out too. aren't we all ?
MariusAdmin
Apr 25, 2018, 15:2304/25/18
09/04/17
2719
Tonaya, the Persian Positions remain unchanged, as always, we have not touched the code in a long while. The only change that was applied was increasing the maximum available level of these Positions. In regards to the revive issue, there were far more people than VIPs complaining and it is their feedback that has been forwarded.
Apr 25, 2018, 15:2704/25/18
05/30/15
62
power to the little people 
Apr 26, 2018, 03:3504/26/18
Apr 26, 2018, 03:36(edited)
01/11/15
22

I feel a need to clarify the point of my post.

I do not believe the PP system is broken, to the contrary I believe it works exactly as the Dev's have intended.

I just wanted to voice publicly, a final acknowledgement to myself, that playing PP is a net loss activity.  I really wanted to believe you could at least break even, but that is not the case.  Granted there were a few payouts that had just a little gain over the loss it took to earn them, but most payouts definitely were worth less the the value of troops lost.

But I think this is by design.  If the system ever gave out more then it took, in theory you could continually grow without having to put anything additional in...my hope and error was thinking you could break even, but I suspect there is always a 10-5% loss, on average.  Even when you get that awesome big payout ("impressive rewards" as Dmitri stated)...If you added up all your partial payouts, and tallied all your losses to get to that point, generally you still walked away with less than what you put in, if only slightly, but just enough to maintain the illusion that you are gaining.


I also have to comment on the "convert troops" proposition that always gets mentioned.  In truth, it is generally only useful for lower level players who do not have higher agreements signed and struggle with grain.  In that instance, converting low to higher tier troops is useful.   The truth is that you are better off just building the higher tier troops and not converting the lower troops to them.  At higher gaming levels, its nice to have loads of lights and heavies around because if the enemy is stacked with Phalanx and Cav def, nothing is more satisfying then hitting them with a ton of LIGHTS and watching the def suffer a massive inefficiency.  Some people think, "yeah well you build lights faster than Cavs!"  Not really true, if you baseline everything, all Offensive units build roughly 8 off points per minute (some 7.96), so you build OFF stats the same if you are building Agema or swords.  The only benefit of swords over agema is they are cheaper in res units, BUT if you invest them in PP, that is very inefficient  because swords only invest 60 res units per minute, where as Promachos invest 93 res units per minute, and Agema 115.6.  So its actually inefficient to use lights and heavies to invest in PP for higher tier units because they invest at a much lower rate (res per build minute), requiring a lot more boosts.  Add to that the 5-10% loss you take in the conversion..you may as well build the swords and use them to hit cities and pantheons stacked with Thureos and M. pelts instead.  It is a more efficient use of their value.  One can argue that you can at least use the light and heavy build ques, in parallel to your Phalxn and Cavs to add to your high level troops in PP, that is true, its inefficient, but true.   


No, I think the only value of PP is that its a lower cost method of building your army, then just boosting or buying units.  Because every unit you send to die, gets added to your bank, (as opposed to lost permanently when doing PVP battles). And once added to the bank, eventually in a payout you will get them back.  BUT then you can revive that unit at a 50% discount (or 75% with the healer), and voila, you are adding to your army at a (slightly less due to the house PP losses) than 50 (or 75)% discount.  That is much cheaper than buying the units you want, and much faster then boosting the builds.  This is the real value of PP.  BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE REVIVING UNITS you send to die.  IF you never revive units you send to PP to die, then you are gaining nothing and eventually will lose your army, because with every position cleared, its lost a little value to the house.   (PS: TIP, the best units to use in PP and revive, if you are using the Res unit system to track PP, are the S. PIke, GS Warrior and Carthagian horsemen, my opinion anyway, based soley on known math...who knows what the PP algorithm does in the background...., As PAR1 stated, take nothing for granted).  
May 9, 2018, 14:2005/09/18
05/15/15
29

My feeling is that the bank must be filled more during PP events and when 75% unit revive is active.

Can someone confirm that?

May 9, 2018, 21:1805/09/18
01/11/15
22

Iguana said:


My feeling is that the bank must be filled more during PP events and when 75% unit revive is active.

Can someone confirm that?


 Good luck with that Iguana,  The devs do not give insight into the exact mechanics of PP ever...most everything is pure conjecture on behalf of the gaming community.  I also suspect that the system adds a little RNG to the payouts/banks etc to make it difficult to establish patterns.  (hide the blackbox function, etc).


 Its kind of like the General avatars..does the female avatar actually help in PP?  (Its implied but there is no actual description of how, if, when or what).  Its likely any benefit is minuscule..say a fraction of of % impact...who knows.
May 10, 2018, 05:5005/10/18
11/05/15
1211

I recently did a persians run up to the top level and ended up with a net gain of 12k Ageama


I used the method of taking all down to 1 bar then closed them off during a PP tournament 


will take me a few months to prepare the next run though 
May 10, 2018, 06:2605/10/18
May 10, 2018, 16:19(edited)
01/11/15
22

Aragon said:


This tool is fine...


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_zntj4zgy5WaExLZF9ISHg4SXc/view



No offense Aragon, but that tool , while a nicely made graphic, is nothing more than how best to attack/def and maximize your power and minimize your losses.


BUT something it ignores, is how to actually optimize for a payout, and in fact the advice on that page can actually hurt your PP playing; take a following scenario for example:


 Lets hypothetically say you are attacking a position, and, hypothetically,  because of its makeup..You can beat the position efficiently with 100 S. Pikemen (the efficient unit), OR if you use M cavalry, it would take you 200 Mac Cavs (the inefficient unit).  Based on the tool your linked too, we would always choose the S. pikemen..its a better match... and you beat the position with much fewer losses.

NOW however, 100 S. Pikemen are only worth 130,000 res units...BUT 200 Mac Cavs are worth 3,800,000 res units...WHAT if that position is the only position in your oracle that works for your current payout...and to fill your bank and get a payout you need to lose another 2,500,000 res units before you clear this postiion.


If you use S. Pikement, your bank will not fill up and you wont get a payout and now you are SCREWED because you do not have a position where you get the payout you are targeting for.  You can pay for refresh, or wait a day and HOPE you get a new position in the range you need...OR you can instead of choosing the optimal unit (Pikemen in this example) to clear the position, use the inefficient maccavs to fill your bank and get a payout.


In theory..sometimes if you know exactly which position you need to clear to get a payout, sometimes you purposefully can waste troops such as using DEF against an OFF positions or vice versus, simply to fill your bank and get a payout at the position you want...though I have never actually done this tactic myself, but based on how PP seems to work..it could be a viable strategy.

The only caveat to everything I have stated is that maybe PP give you a bonus for using only optimal troop decisions, BUT I have never heard anyone validate that.



May 10, 2018, 06:2805/10/18
01/11/15
22

morteeee said:


I recently did a persians run up to the top level and ended up with a net gain of 12k Ageama


I used the method of taking all down to 1 bar then closed them off during a PP tournament 


will take me a few months to prepare the next run though 

You are either one of the rare lucky few..or maybe you counted your gains after clearing all the 1 bars as well as your reward..in which case its misleading because you are counting gains that are actually borrowed against your next payout.  


I hope you are one of the lucky few though to be honest.