I've had anough with the rigged game - time to find class action lawyers

97 Replies
Tonaya
26 April, 2017, 2:44 AM UTC

Mullenz said:


Tonaya said:



btw to rebuild 10mill off or def you need years ,not months

Tonaya

You probably made a typo. It is close to 100k total def and off per day to get from your 4 birth houses, but you also can use boosts. About 3 mil per month + troops from daily "gifts"- agema and infantry. So, for 10 mil you will need 3-4 months. 

But even that is too much.

yes,you can do a lot of stuff in game using money

buy drachma,buy boosters,buy troops,revive troops,.....money,money,money....where is fun there?


Tonaya

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Tonaya
26 April, 2017, 3:58 AM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


I'm sure I've already said it before, but it's still actual :)


It's very complicated. Let's imagine a situation: You've lost all Units and now you need 2 months to rebuild to compete with others.
Even if we cut training time by 50%, you will still need 1 month to rebuild. Which is still too long. It's not 1 day as most of you would like to. And players would still be dissatisfied.
Moreover, if you build faster, it means that your rivals also build faster. So you can't take over and get an advantage of it - all players will rebuild as fast as you, and you will need to build more and more Units to compete with them. Which results in more time.
If we drastically change building time, it would be fair to change the price of Units as Drachmas are mostly designed to save your time. So if you need to spend twice less time, it would be fair to spend less Drachmas for it, right? 
And it would allow some players to buy even more Units than they can buy now. 
What does this mean for you? Even longer to build to compete with them. It's called inflation. Your Units will cost less in a fight. If you need 1 mil. now, you will need 2 mil after changes. Which still results in the same building time.
The balance of forces would be the same, you would need more Units for each fight, and you would still spend the same amount of time for building a competitive army. 
Some games have a different dynamics which includes 1-2 hour rebuild of a full army. But our game is using a different approach. You need to invest your time and spend Resources to build a large army. Sometimes it takes several months of building for a single epic strike. And such strikes are more epic and more exciting than everyday 10k hits. 

Missy Alyona,last time you used that philosophy about inflation,you shut my mouth and sended me in room 101 ^^

to open your eyes:you are looking from wrong perspective^^

here,point by point:

1."It's very complicated. Let's imagine a situation: You've lost all Units and now you need 2 months to rebuild to compete with others.

Even if we cut training time by 50%, you will still need 1 month to rebuild. Which is still too long. It's not 1 day as most of you would like to. And players would still be dissatisfied."

Tonaya:we would be happy if you cut troop build time for  50%,not just happy,satisfied.only true is:"Which is still too long",good thing is that you know that too.

2."Moreover, if you build faster, it means that your rivals also build faster. So you can't take over and get an advantage of it - all players will rebuild as fast as you, and you will need to build more and more Units to compete with them. Which results in more time."

Tonaya:yes,we want same rights for all players,all to be equal

3."If we drastically change building time, it would be fair to change the price of Units as Drachmas are mostly designed to save your time. So if you need to spend twice less time, it would be fair to spend less Drachmas for it, right? "

Tonaya:right,if we can build troops double faster,or to buy more with less drachma's,we would war more=more war=more dead troops=more reviving=more fun for players

4."And it would allow some players to buy even more Units than they can buy now. 

What does this mean for you? Even longer to build to compete with them"

Tonaya:it means a lot to us,if we can build troops double faster,we would fight more,now if you loose all your troops you'v build for years,in only 1 second,there is only two options:1.delete account and play some other game 2.put huge amount of money and revive troops

5."It's called inflation. Your Units will cost less in a fight. If you need 1 mil. now, you will need 2 mil after changes. Which still results in the same building time.

The balance of forces would be the same, you would need more Units for each fight, and you would still spend the same amount of time for building a competitive army. 

Some games have a different dynamics which includes 1-2 hour rebuild of a full army. But our game is using a different approach. You need to invest your time and spend Resources to build a large army. Sometimes it takes several months of building for a single epic strike. And such strikes are more epic and more exciting than everyday 10k hits. "

Tonaya:in number 5 is the key of all our problems and your wrong perspective and perception

in this game,there are only 1 salesroom,plarium shop,we can buy all stuff in game only from you,so you have monopoly to determine the price of all,price of drachma,price of troops,price of all items for game,you are the only one who determine currency.

if we have more then one store in game,then it would be economy like in real life,if one store number 1 lower price of drachma,all players would buy from that store,that would result to store number 2 lower their price too and then would players buy from store number 2,it is the law of the market,market economy,quality determines the price.

but here it is something different:

plarium have monopoly to determinate the currency,to name the price off all stuff in this game

the only thing against plarium's monopoly is time,and that is the secret key and answer why it is like it is in this game

only abnormally long time to build troops holds your currency,and give a simple choice to players:you can buy everything in this game,only from plarium,by price which plarium determine,or if you dont want to spend money in plarium store on plarium's price,well,its your problem,then you gonna build troops for months and years,and we cant do nothing about it,right Alyona?

it is bad company management ,shortsighted  company management,that leads to the collapse of the market,in this case  collapse of the game.

signs for game collapsing : user deleted on map,a lot customer's complaining on forum,less war on map

players now take care of their troops much more then before,no one wants to loose troops he builded for years,or purchased with money,on silly fights.

answer from plarium was:

1.changing pp system=more death troops

2.invention of pantheon massacre,capital showdown,capture the flag=more death troops whether you want it or not

Alyona:but there is 90% free revive on pantheon massacre

Tonaya:no,first its not 90% at all,second its 10% plarium's tax

the only way plarium make profit is more death troops,players must loose troops more so they spend more money and buy more

i had a bar 10 years,i know what am i talking about,better management is lower price and make a profit on the quantity

Alyona,please,copy-paste my post and give to plariums boses,maybe they will understand this,and do something about it before its too late


Tonaya 

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Mullenz
26 April, 2017, 6:21 AM UTC
Tonaya said:


yes,you can do a lot of stuff in game using money

buy drachma,buy boosters,buy troops,revive troops,.....money,money,money....where is fun there?


Tonaya

Tonaya, I haven't spent a penny since may 2015. On that reason, I think. Palrium is causing troubles - they want suckers and spenders :) 
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Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
26 April, 2017, 7:58 AM UTC

We've already asked our devs if they could cut training time by 50%, or allow 2 queues for each Unit type (Offense and Defense), etc. 

The answer was very clear - no. And one of the main reasons is that it still wouldn't be enough. It would still take years to rebuild 10 millions, and it would still take months to rebuild after a major loss. 

The only solution that would make players happy is a drastic training time reduce, and we are not ready to implement it. Our game works differently, and it has always been like that. When you started playing this game, training time didn't take seconds (Well, except for the tutorial Units), and it shouldn't take seconds now. 

There are no actual reasons for our developers to change training time drastically, except for the complaints coming from players, that have major losses and want to rebuild fast. But if you want to do something fast in this game, you can use boosts (you get a lot of them for free, remember?), Drachmas (You also get them for free, you don't have to use in-app purchases). 

However, I see that cutting training time is very important for you, so when we have the next meeting with devs, I will raise this suggestion again. However, don't forget that last few times their answer was "no", and I don't think we have good chances to hear "yes"

Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
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RIX forum RETIRED
26 April, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable.  Increases the amount of lights and heavies you can convert to better troops in persians and pvp rewards.


It would actually call for a more robust battlefield.  The Devs decreased travel time exponentially back in 2015 as i remember it took up to 24 hours to reach some targets so you never really bothered. That actually created more battles.

The Devs decreased travel time to emporia, that made it much more manageable 

If it took mere seconds or minutes to create troops, more people would fight.  30 seconds for javs, 1 minute for hoplights and 5 minutes for agema or mounted pelts would be WAYYYYYYY more profitable for plarium.

If I could build 30 agema ponies an hour? I would spend tons of drachma on resource packs and battle much more because i know my troops can be replaced in much less time. That is a FACT

Slow builds cause MOST PLAYERS TO HAVE ART ARMIES OR MUSEUM ARMIES. Nobody wants to take a year to start over from one fight.

facts facts factys facts facts
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Mick13000
27 April, 2017, 12:50 AM UTC

RIX said:


I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable.  Increases the amount of lights and heavies you can convert to better troops in persians and pvp rewards.


It would actually call for a more robust battlefield.  The Devs decreased travel time exponentially back in 2015 as i remember it took up to 24 hours to reach some targets so you never really bothered. That actually created more battles.

The Devs decreased travel time to emporia, that made it much more manageable 

If it took mere seconds or minutes to create troops, more people would fight.  30 seconds for javs, 1 minute for hoplights and 5 minutes for agema or mounted pelts would be WAYYYYYYY more profitable for plarium.

If I could build 30 agema ponies an hour? I would spend tons of drachma on resource packs and battle much more because i know my troops can be replaced in much less time. That is a FACT

Slow builds cause MOST PLAYERS TO HAVE ART ARMIES OR MUSEUM ARMIES. Nobody wants to take a year to start over from one fight.

facts facts factys facts facts

Without question or argument-

Your post "Exactly" hits the nail on the head for accuracy and truthfulness.


"Nobody wants to take a year to start over from one fight"


"I would spend tons of drachma on resource packs and battle much more because i know my troops can be replaced in much less time. That is a FACT"


Yes Sir-You are correct again!! So would I!

For clarity's sake: "I would spend tons of drachma on resource packs and battle much more because i know my troops can be replaced in much less time. That is a FACT"


I don't have a lot of money, but what I do have is a very particular set of skills-built up over a lifetime.

I hope someday to find you  and buy you a Steak/Lobster/Sushi dinner with your choice of drinks!!

Great Post Sir! 


Thank You & Much Respect!


Mick

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Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
27 April, 2017, 7:59 AM UTC
RIX said:

I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable. 

Of course it would. I know that players would happily accept any change to the training time. However, our game dynamics was purposely designed in a certain manner. Meaning that you need to make a choice between Offense and Defense, between different types of Units, etc. And building them should take some time. Our devs add possibilities to boost this process. However, basic training time for a huge army MUST take long. And our devs are not planning to change it.
Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
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Mullenz
27 April, 2017, 9:22 AM UTC
Alyona Kolomiitseva said:

RIX said:

I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable. 

Of course it would. I know that players would happily accept any change to the training time. However, our game dynamics was purposely designed in a certain manner. Meaning that you need to make a choice between Offense and Defense, between different types of Units, etc. And building them should take some time. Our devs add possibilities to boost this process. However, basic training time for a huge army MUST take long. And our devs are not planning to change it.
As it was proven multiple times, Palrium tasks your "devs" to be acting against interests of decent and skilled players. Double-digit IQ coiners would buy huge amount of boosts and resources and rebuild at no time. And these are who you favor. Shame.  
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Mullenz
27 April, 2017, 9:32 AM UTC
Alyona Kolomiitseva said:

. But if you want to do something fast in this game, you can use boosts (you get a lot of them for free, remember?), Drachmas (You also get them for free, you don't have to use in-app purchases). 


What are the criteria of 'a lot of boosts"? Is 10 days "a lot"? This time would not allow you to rebuild even 10% of losses. As for "drachmas for free" - it is not good even as a joke. In order to get good amount of drachmas, you have to win a tournament against 200-300 mil troops monster coiners a and cheaters. That is virtually impossible. But even if you do that, you can get couple scores of heavy troops for 5000 drachmas. That is nothing on the scale of battle losses.  
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RIX forum RETIRED
27 April, 2017, 10:59 AM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


RIX said:


I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable. 

Of course it would. I know that players would happily accept any change to the training time. However, our game dynamics was purposely designed in a certain manner. Meaning that you need to make a choice between Offense and Defense, between different types of Units, etc. And building them should take some time. Our devs add possibilities to boost this process. However, basic training time for a huge army MUST take long. And our devs are not planning to change it.

I can respect this answer because it's the correct answer when the game was in it's infancy.  When someone who has 200 champion units and 5000 promachos was a very big deal.  Now its 75,000 promachos and 2000 champion units or 50,000 agema and 2500 champion units meanwhile a player who played in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 2017 who do not have any persian exploits or large amounts of drachma cannot compete because their build times have not eveolved like thos who know the persian algorithims or coin like a drunken sailor.


The game has evolved, the devs know this and have made other revisions based on that.  The only thing they are stuck on is troop build times. I don't get it
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Mick13000
27 April, 2017, 7:03 PM UTC

RIX said:


Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


RIX said:


I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable. 

Of course it would. I know that players would happily accept any change to the training time. However, our game dynamics was purposely designed in a certain manner. Meaning that you need to make a choice between Offense and Defense, between different types of Units, etc. And building them should take some time. Our devs add possibilities to boost this process. However, basic training time for a huge army MUST take long. And our devs are not planning to change it.

I can respect this answer because it's the correct answer when the game was in it's infancy.  When someone who has 200 champion units and 5000 promachos was a very big deal.  Now its 75,000 promachos and 2000 champion units or 50,000 agema and 2500 champion units meanwhile a player who played in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 2017 who do not have any persian exploits or large amounts of drachma cannot compete because their build times have not eveolved like thos who know the persian algorithims or coin like a drunken sailor.


The game has evolved, the devs know this and have made other revisions based on that.  The only thing they are stuck on is troop build times. I don't get it

I believe the troop build times is the "centering" algorithm which the game functions on. Change that, and the game dynamics change.

As for the 50K in Agemas or 75K in Promachos-I have seen those numbers on occasion in screen shots from pan/capitol battles, from individuals who shared the screen shot of the attack. But, the troop numbers don't add up to the individual's time in game.

Given the current build times, since they have not changed, training time for an army that huge must have started back in 1999 or so I believe or..they were "coining like a drunken sailor"...lol:)) 

Given all of above, my coalition, in conjunction with a few others have set up different rules of engagement to preclude losing your entire army. Lets face it-it does take to long to build and it is much to expensive to revive.

Respect

Mick

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RIX forum RETIRED
27 April, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC
Mick13000 said:

RIX said:


Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


RIX said:


I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable. 

Of course it would. I know that players would happily accept any change to the training time. However, our game dynamics was purposely designed in a certain manner. Meaning that you need to make a choice between Offense and Defense, between different types of Units, etc. And building them should take some time. Our devs add possibilities to boost this process. However, basic training time for a huge army MUST take long. And our devs are not planning to change it.

I can respect this answer because it's the correct answer when the game was in it's infancy.  When someone who has 200 champion units and 5000 promachos was a very big deal.  Now its 75,000 promachos and 2000 champion units or 50,000 agema and 2500 champion units meanwhile a player who played in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 2017 who do not have any persian exploits or large amounts of drachma cannot compete because their build times have not eveolved like thos who know the persian algorithims or coin like a drunken sailor.


The game has evolved, the devs know this and have made other revisions based on that.  The only thing they are stuck on is troop build times. I don't get it

I believe the troop build times is the "centering" algorithm which the game functions on. Change that, and the game dynamics change.

As for the 50K in Agemas or 75K in Promachos-I have seen those numbers on occasion in screen shots from pan/capitol battles, from individuals who shared the screen shot of the attack. But, the troop numbers don't add up to the individual's time in game.

Given the current build times, since they have not changed, training time for an army that huge must have started back in 1999 or so I believe or..they were "coining like a drunken sailor"...lol:)) 

Given all of above, my coalition, in conjunction with a few others have set up different rules of engagement to preclude losing your entire army. Lets face it-it does take to long to build and it is much to expensive to revive.

Respect

Mick

I've been on the receiving end of those big hits and have had javs in cities where those hits occur regularly 
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Mick13000
27 April, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

RIX said:


Mick13000 said:


RIX said:


Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


RIX said:


I think cutting troops build times and doubling up on separate defense and offensive queues would actually be very favorable. 

Of course it would. I know that players would happily accept any change to the training time. However, our game dynamics was purposely designed in a certain manner. Meaning that you need to make a choice between Offense and Defense, between different types of Units, etc. And building them should take some time. Our devs add possibilities to boost this process. However, basic training time for a huge army MUST take long. And our devs are not planning to change it.

I can respect this answer because it's the correct answer when the game was in it's infancy.  When someone who has 200 champion units and 5000 promachos was a very big deal.  Now its 75,000 promachos and 2000 champion units or 50,000 agema and 2500 champion units meanwhile a player who played in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 2017 who do not have any persian exploits or large amounts of drachma cannot compete because their build times have not eveolved like thos who know the persian algorithims or coin like a drunken sailor.


The game has evolved, the devs know this and have made other revisions based on that.  The only thing they are stuck on is troop build times. I don't get it

I believe the troop build times is the "centering" algorithm which the game functions on. Change that, and the game dynamics change.

As for the 50K in Agemas or 75K in Promachos-I have seen those numbers on occasion in screen shots from pan/capitol battles, from individuals who shared the screen shot of the attack. But, the troop numbers don't add up to the individual's time in game.

Given the current build times, since they have not changed, training time for an army that huge must have started back in 1999 or so I believe or..they were "coining like a drunken sailor"...lol:)) 

Given all of above, my coalition, in conjunction with a few others have set up different rules of engagement to preclude losing your entire army. Lets face it-it does take to long to build and it is much to expensive to revive.

Respect

Mick

I've been on the receiving end of those big hits and have had javs in cities where those hits occur regularly 


..as I have had troops in cities as well. We are in agreement then on this point Sir.


While I truly love the game, I have  discussed with other players, the incongruities of players with that size army/troops and the time on game. Calculating troop builds for that size army runs into double digit years. The math does not lie! 

Thank you for your response. Back to building troops:)


Respect to you


Mick

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Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
28 April, 2017, 8:21 AM UTC

RIX said:



The game has evolved, the devs know this and have made other revisions based on that.  The only thing they are stuck on is troop build times. I don't get it

They aren't stuck on building times :) 

Huge armies never supposed to be built at an instant. But as I said, I'll remind them anyway.
Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
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RIX forum RETIRED
28 April, 2017, 12:15 PM UTC
Alyona Kolomiitseva said:

RIX said:



The game has evolved, the devs know this and have made other revisions based on that.  The only thing they are stuck on is troop build times. I don't get it

They aren't stuck on building times :) 

Huge armies never supposed to be built at an instant. But as I said, I'll remind them anyway.
I think that to have a huge army of perhaps 1 billion in strength, use it to topple entire coalitions then have it back to where it was before you attacked them, would take decades of building or 100's of thousands of real life euros to buy instantly.  Many players see these irregularityies on all servers and have to question how are players acquiring 50/75/100k agema and mounted pelts in such short times, using them in battle, then a week later be right back to where you were. I cannot imagine the amount of money someone would spend to use millions of drachma building these huge armies.
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knigochey
29 April, 2017, 1:05 AM UTC

Forget logic and mathematics, guys. Don't trust your eyes. Because otherwise massive cheating is obvious: some players have access to massive back-doors, while others are destined to face additional hurdles. 

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GLP
30 April, 2017, 8:39 PM UTC
RIX said:

Slow builds cause MOST PLAYERS TO HAVE ART ARMIES OR MUSEUM ARMIES. Nobody wants to take a year to start over from one fight.

facts facts factys facts facts
^^ This.
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d3vnul
1 May, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


We've already asked our devs if they could cut training time by 50%, or allow 2 queues for each Unit type (Offense and Defense), etc. 

The answer was very clear - no. And one of the main reasons is that it still wouldn't be enough. It would still take years to rebuild 10 millions, and it would still take months to rebuild after a major loss. 

The only solution that would make players happy is a drastic training time reduce, and we are not ready to implement it. Our game works differently, and it has always been like that. When you started playing this game, training time didn't take seconds (Well, except for the tutorial Units), and it shouldn't take seconds now. 

There are no actual reasons for our developers to change training time drastically, except for the complaints coming from players, that have major losses and want to rebuild fast. But if you want to do something fast in this game, you can use boosts (you get a lot of them for free, remember?), Drachmas (You also get them for free, you don't have to use in-app purchases). 

However, I see that cutting training time is very important for you, so when we have the next meeting with devs, I will raise this suggestion again. However, don't forget that last few times their answer was "no", and I don't think we have good chances to hear "yes"


Easy , get new developers , existing ones suck big time ! Or even the sucking existing ones will agree to it as soon as their job will be on the line. I do hope more and more players realize that there's no plarium without them ! use your powers or they will(plarium) against you
Sparta - War of Wallets - 2017 Edition
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Tonaya
2 May, 2017, 12:19 PM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


We've already asked our devs if they could cut training time by 50%, or allow 2 queues for each Unit type (Offense and Defense), etc. 

The answer was very clear - no. And one of the main reasons is that it still wouldn't be enough. It would still take years to rebuild 10 millions, and it would still take months to rebuild after a major loss. 

The only solution that would make players happy is a drastic training time reduce, and we are not ready to implement it. Our game works differently, and it has always been like that. When you started playing this game, training time didn't take seconds (Well, except for the tutorial Units), and it shouldn't take seconds now. 

There are no actual reasons for our developers to change training time drastically, except for the complaints coming from players, that have major losses and want to rebuild fast. But if you want to do something fast in this game, you can use boosts (you get a lot of them for free, remember?), Drachmas (You also get them for free, you don't have to use in-app purchases). 

However, I see that cutting training time is very important for you, so when we have the next meeting with devs, I will raise this suggestion again. However, don't forget that last few times their answer was "no", and I don't think we have good chances to hear "yes"

.....and I don't think we have good chances to hear "yes"...

WE? you changed sides Alyona?

did i converted you,finally?


Tonaya

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Mick13000
3 May, 2017, 9:50 AM UTC

d3vnul said:


Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


We've already asked our devs if they could cut training time by 50%, or allow 2 queues for each Unit type (Offense and Defense), etc. 

The answer was very clear - no. And one of the main reasons is that it still wouldn't be enough. It would still take years to rebuild 10 millions, and it would still take months to rebuild after a major loss. 

The only solution that would make players happy is a drastic training time reduce, and we are not ready to implement it. Our game works differently, and it has always been like that. When you started playing this game, training time didn't take seconds (Well, except for the tutorial Units), and it shouldn't take seconds now. 

There are no actual reasons for our developers to change training time drastically, except for the complaints coming from players, that have major losses and want to rebuild fast. But if you want to do something fast in this game, you can use boosts (you get a lot of them for free, remember?), Drachmas (You also get them for free, you don't have to use in-app purchases). 

However, I see that cutting training time is very important for you, so when we have the next meeting with devs, I will raise this suggestion again. However, don't forget that last few times their answer was "no", and I don't think we have good chances to hear "yes"


Easy , get new developers , existing ones suck big time ! Or even the sucking existing ones will agree to it as soon as their job will be on the line. I do hope more and more players realize that there's no plarium without them ! use your powers or they will(plarium) against you

With all respect D3vnul,

-A few months ago players banded together and formed a "Drach Boycott". If you search the forum you can find and read all the threads.

The only power an individual has is to chose to play this game or not, or to chose to spend their euros/dollars.

I personally think I would have a better chance of meeting Alyona, taking her to dinner, falling in love with her, marrying her and spoiling her for the rest of her life...before Plarium makes any changes with regard to what we the players want (faster build times, low revival costs etc..)

I enjoy the game for the people I have made contact with all over the world thru the various chat methods (Skype, TS3 etc..) It's for fun, it has become a "social" point for me. Spending to make up for troop loss or to hope or wish for a huge army that will not disappear in a single battle is but a dream.

Enjoy the game for what is, and enjoy the time you spend with your fellow coalition members.

Respectfully,

Mick





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