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persians leads to permanent loss of great scale...

42 Replies
mitko
8 September, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

Greetings everyone, 

I have spent few weeks on investigation in forums about this issue. Plarium LTD remains silent about this matter claiming that persians are some kind of a secret, and people should discover by themselves how they work. Hereby i am disclosing statistical data based on percise calculations (using microsoft excel). Units invested in persians were converted into resouse value and payouts also were converted to resourse value:

36 positions hit from lvl 32 to lvl 70 using all kind of troops includin carthaginians, sidonians and golden shileds.

results registered by excel are concrete  solid ::

it has been  registered a massive loss of army ( worth 22 024 000 resourses). Several payouts have been claimed during proces and each one leading to more and more negative income digging bigger and bigger hole compared to starting numbers.

Based on results in my survey i can draw some conclussions:

1. Plarium LTD is hiding intentionaly the process of persians system, with unknown purpose, probably coverring something wrong.

2. playing persians may lead to permanent massive losses of army.

3.  Conclusion N 3 i leave to you to make...

I would be happy if this topic is not deleted by moderators so other players can give their oppinion on this matter...

UTC +2:00
manu
8 September, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

Hi POM,

1) 32 positions is a very low number.

2) with some hundreds of positions I had registered also with Excel and ressources calculations i'm roughly at 0 in balance. so transfer from low lvl units to higher level unit had worked. (levels of PP registered from 1 to 68)

3) taking in account number of units won by daily mission and coa mission so units who didn't cost me any ressources to built i'm in positive ....

4) order you're doing your persian may impact the result. it's my opinion.

5) have a friend in positive with 400 PP on his Excel sheet.

I don't say I'm found of persian position, i would appreciate also, as all players, to have more information on the way it works  but 32 PP isn't a number huge enough for me to be significative

Have a good game & better luck


Manu

UTC +1:00
mitko
8 September, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

thanx manu you gave me some hope that my army isnt lost forever..

1 what order do you do with positions?

2. did you send cartaginians, golden shield and sidonians or regular units only?

UTC +2:00
manu
9 September, 2016, 7:54 AM UTC

Hi Pom,

using carthaginians, GS and sidonians  : yes for sure ;-) never use denarii units (no ressources cost or unknown)  and macedonians /agemas because it's units i wanna win as all of us....

After a payback, i just do low level pp to increase bank again

I always check units in the persian position to adapt units i have to send depending on units on the position. I always try to minimize my lost. it's my way of playing.

I track and when my bank reach 60 % of the previous one's i'm doing higher levels so for me 55 to 70. (i know it's low level but don't want to go higher when looking at the cost in units). I choose if i want to try to take my payback in off or def. If bank isn't coming and i have a important return, not a banck but a big return.... my ratio move back from 65% to 35% for example. i'm going back to low lvl to increase my reimbursment ... loop again until i have the payback. 


I'm not a coiner, just using unit's i'm building so I don't do 50 positions / days lol, but i'm tracking them all for a long time. For me to win on persian you have to stay below 50 so you could just do those positions with lights and heavies.  you win less, it takes times your army don't grow to 50 millions in few weeks or days.... but you can do it. My friend in positive is under 40 but doing all his persian with lights / heavies and paid back with phal and horses. He follows my recommandations. If i could restart the game, i will never move over 50 on persian.

I never used previously the one bar approach which was changed few weeks ago so my excel files is perfect. the change didn't impact anything.


Have a good game pom

Manu


UTC +1:00
Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
9 September, 2016, 8:20 AM UTC

Great tips, Manu!  Thank you for helping others to understand the PP mechanics. I've awarded you with 200 Drachmas for doing that. 

By the way, I think you could write a good guide on that. How do you think? 
Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
UTC +2:00
Prometheus
9 September, 2016, 8:36 AM UTC

Hello Archon,


There are plenty of guides that explains what's best to do on Persians on game tutorials and on our Blog.

Please read them :)


Let us know your results!
UTC +4:00
manu
9 September, 2016, 1:35 PM UTC

 @ alyona thks for drachmas.

to write something, you need to know real mechanism... I, as all players, don't know the real mechanism. We used what older players teached us in terms of informations, we look for informations and try to built our own experience...


If you give me  the real mechanism i will be happy to write something more real than my poor assumptions  ;-). 


But in this case give it directly to the community ;-)


Sorry stupid french humour...


@ prometheus, 

agreed with you. first think is to move to wikiplarium.... and some topics are interesting

In the web a lot of things are present. you mix them all to built your own approach. The result  will depend on how you play the game.... me its as we say in french : if you move slowly you move surely.


Good game to All

Manu


UTC +1:00
who
9 September, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

PP are designed to be a trade market were low level troops become higher and this comes with a cost.

The "one bar strategy" was a players' "crack" to minimize those loses and this was because with that strategy players avoided partial rewards which seems to be the big problem here.

1) Why they were designed to be a loss

Because even if we take as granted that they return back your resources they do it with troops that worth less power/res

for example:

1mil res in hops is 115k of power

but 1mil res in promachos is 89k

and 1mil res in agema is 69k

(all these values are the initial)

so you trade them but this means you actually pay a tax in power. Of course you earn speed and power/grain consumption.

2) Why the change of 1-bar has driven everyone mad?

With 1-bar we actually had to pay back only the last bank and some very very small partials.

They were small because most players after taking the big payout cleared them and because there were only few Persians there the rewards were very small.

Apparently, some players found a way to get more as Plarium claims.

So if you had an 1mil payout, you had to pay back that 1mil+some tax(10-15% or whatever)+the small partials, and you were rewarded with the same amount, more or less.

Now, since you have to finish the intermediate positions, partials are bigger making you to pay back them too before big payout.

This has as result to lose more units with good power/res ratio making a huge difference in the end.

Especially in higher levels were rewards are bigger, the problem becomes more obvious.


Of course, all these are debatable and based on my experience of them.

Use sidonian/golden shields/carthaginian and try to not upgrade them.

The fewer positions you will have to kill to get the new payout the less partials you will have to pay back.

UTC -6:00
oo0obretto0oo
9 September, 2016, 9:56 PM UTC
I think you lose some on positions if you know what you are doing, and lose greatly if you do not. You do however have the chance to gain items that may help you overall, not to mention high level units that would take a great deal of time to train. With positions you must know what you are doing and don't expend to much of your primary army. There are plenty of tips and experience articles out there to guide you. How you use that information is up to you.
UTC +6:00
Wy San Luis
30 September, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

manu said:


 If i could restart the game, i will never move over 50 on persian.

Hi Manu. I think if you want to set a limit on persian positions, your level 70 would be perfect because you can only get class 4 item's for your general by hitting level 61 and above. Just my opinion by the way.

I never used previously the one bar approach which was changed few weeks ago so my excel files is perfect.

Did you develop it yourself? Would you mind sharing it?

"Those who seek to die will live, and those who seek to live will die."
UTC +0:00
ThatBloke
1 October, 2016, 3:49 AM UTC

Hello Archons,


I have some remarks :


- No, 32 position is not a low number for these low levels. The payout should usually drop in a matter of 10-12 positions of mixed levels, less if you're hitting higher level ones because your losses are higher there, and much more if you're hitting lower levels ones, of course.


- I think the problem may come the scattered efforts. My investigations tend to show the multiple banks do exist.

As a result, you should focus on either the 40-60 area, or the 61-80 area (the border may as well be 40-50, and either 50-80 or 51-75 and 75-80, by the way : record your losses and gains, and check your figures). Scattering your losses over such a wide range will give you 2 or even 3 separate payouts in the end, but it will take much longer to pay back those 3 banks at the same time.


- Do NOT waste your cathaginians, etc. there. You really don't need to waste your valuable troops to such low level positions. Up to level 80, I'm going on using only cheap infantry. I may sometimes use some excess phalanx to go faster or becasue I'm running out of fodder, but only if I can't avoid this.

As a matter of fact, what you want to get are cavalry and phalanx. If you waste them as you go, you army will never grow up.

I think I've heard rumors about sending cavalry etc. to Persians. Let's make things clear : this is utter nonsense. Don't listen to the idiots asking you to do this. It's only a matter of investing resources : the kind of units is completely irrelevant.

By the way, just trying to waste as much resources as you can is not necessarily the best move.Remember you get down payments for each position you finish. It's not as huge as a payout of course, but it's still worth grabbing, especially if you're wise enough not to waste the good cavalry and phalanx you get from them and keep them safe to grow up your army on the go.

So playing to win more often with less troops and get as many down payment as possible is another good way to play. That's the one I've been using.


- Remember the payout value will only depend on the level that will give it. That's the reason why we count our losses : to know when we have invested enough so the payout is close.

When you get there, NEVER hit low levels, as the imminent payout may then drop from a ridiculously low level and you'll never be beneficial.

So always keep the highest levels positions in the range you're playing for the end of the cycle.

I pity the fool
UTC +11:00
Hundigo
1 October, 2016, 8:58 AM UTC

ThatBloke said:


Hello Archons,


I have some remarks :


*SKIPP*

I think I've heard rumors about sending cavalry etc. to Persians. Let's make things clear : this is utter nonsense. Don't listen to the idiots asking you to do this. It's only a matter of investing resources : the kind of units is completely irrelevant.

By the way, just trying to waste as much resources as you can is not necessarily the best move.Remember you get down payments for each position you finish. It's not as huge as a payout of course, but it's still worth grabbing, especially if you're wise enough not to waste the good cavalry and phalanx you get from them and keep them safe to grow up your army on the go.

So playing to win more often with less troops and get as many down payment as possible is another good way to play. That's the one I've been using.


- Remember the payout value will only depend on the level that will give it. That's the reason why we count our losses : to know when we have invested enough so the payout is close.

When you get there, NEVER hit low levels, as the imminent payout may then drop from a ridiculously low level and you'll never be beneficial.

So always keep the highest levels positions in the range you're playing for the end of the cycle.

So how you gonna explain to all the players that does the PP's in that way ? 

Going up from low lvl positions to higher lvl positions. Ones they reached their pay-out (big pay-out) and then stops. 

The next day (or the next persian position quest ) they use their troops they had gained at the persian positions , so they payed the bank already back, and do the rest with the troops they gained with the daily quests and with the troops they have self build between these 2 timeframes, to reach their next pay-out. 

The normall result should be that they have to reach their next pay-out. But that's the missing point. They don't. 

You moderator ThatBloke wrote even about 'growing army' . I don't even do that ....  Let's take first the simply "status quo" as achievement. If it doesn't work with the "status quo", your explanation shall not work at all with " a growing army" as achievement. 


It's a PvE. Check out first what that means in online games, and what rules are used for it. That part skipped Plarium Games.  And most moderators didn't know it either. I remember a post from you moderator ThatBloke and from moderator Puvio or whatever he name is. You both explained at the community that you was doing the persian positions with only "hero's" you can have for free in the game. And I also remember the question from the community manager about ....  it was like .... " really ? "  And for ones that community manager was right about it. With "hero's " you can finish PP's, (only the small ones) but you shall never have a pay-out for it. Neither a partial pay-out, neither a big pay-out, in resource value , because you need to have 'resource losses' at each persian positions lvl. You can indeed finish them with hero's , but you shall never have a resource value with it for your bank pay-out or even your normall pay-out. 


It's not the first time, you moderator ThatBloke , has given different answers on the public forum about it. And we all know that you don't work for Plarium Games (well , that's of course the opinion you have self about it and what Plarium Games also tells ), in reallity you do work for Plarium Games. A moderator is a so called verry experienced player that knows all the aspects of the game and therefore can also be a moderator to help other players out. Specially for the persian positions, (what is PvE) , all the moderators have the lack of experience about it, because actually all the moderators aren't high on the persian positions. 



UTC +0:00
Kakos
1 October, 2016, 9:16 AM UTC
He is ba-aaaack... lol
Vae victis
UTC +9:00
Hundigo
1 October, 2016, 9:34 AM UTC

Not for that long, but I also take 150 + members of my own coalition to another game, and that with a lot of other current players on the Plarium Games gameplatform. 


So Kakos, you can stay over here, and buy again troops like you did before and also told on the forum about it ;-)

Then you have your own 'friendsgame' with moderator ThatBloke on the Plarium Games servers :-)

Moderator ThatBloke needs his daily "drachma's payment" from Plarium Games. It's one that has to pay for it. I'm glad you do it on a regular base, otherwise moderator ThatBloke would also quit  

UTC +0:00
Kakos
1 October, 2016, 11:37 PM UTC

Hundigo said:


I also take 150 + members of my own coalition to another game

NOOOOO!!!!

If you do that, Plarium will have to declare bankruptcy.. have a heart.. PLEASE!!!  
Vae victis
UTC +9:00
Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
3 October, 2016, 10:49 AM UTC

Hundigo, you're back!  

Did you have a vacation? 

Now, going back to the topic. You said ThatBloke is giving different answers on Forum regarding PPs. Actually, I think it's a normal thing. You know that PPs were changed 3,5 months ago. So players need time to try different strategies and adapt to the changes. Once a player discoveres something new about PPs, he can share his experience with others. 

No one knows for sure how the PPs work. Neither do I actually. 

So there's nothing wrong in sharing your own vision, your own experience and guesses. Some players may be even much more experienced in doing PPs than some of our Moderators. 

But we also have Moderators who are really cool in that. They have a chat where they can share their tactics with each other, and this information also helps them to help you here, on Forums. 

If you know something about PPs that we all are missing, please share. Everyone will be grateful: me, Mods, and other players.

Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
UTC +2:00
Hundigo
3 October, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:


Hundigo, you're back!  

Did you have a vacation? 


If you bend your own forumrules and ban a forumuser for several months, just because that forumuser wrote the truth on the forum, then I find it verry hypocrite from your side now to ask if I had vacation. 


Now going back to the topic 

It's not about having a change of opinion, it's about informing other players on the forum. It was totally wrong what these 2 moderators did. They both passed the wrong information with the purpose of misleading other players in the game. 

But that's also your responsibility community manager. You also are informed and check the forum on a verry regular base. It was your responsibility also to see if players get the correct answers from the moderators. 
UTC +0:00
Alyona Kolomiitseva
Community Manager
4 October, 2016, 11:30 AM UTC

Hundigo said:

If you bend your own forumrules and ban a forumuser for several months, just because that forumuser wrote the truth on the forum, then I find it verry hypocrite from your side now to ask if I had vacation. 


Now going back to the topic 

It's not about having a change of opinion, it's about informing other players on the forum. It was totally wrong what these 2 moderators did. They both passed the wrong information with the purpose of misleading other players in the game. 

But that's also your responsibility community manager. You also are informed and check the forum on a verry regular base. It was your responsibility also to see if players get the correct answers from the moderators. 

First of all, I'm sure that our moderators didn't have an intention to misinform players, so please avoid such wordings.

As for me, I cannot tell players how the PPs work. We have posted the official information in the News and Announcements thread and gave details there. However, nobody from Plarium will ever give you more information or tell other players that they are wrong with their assumptions. There are some points we can clarify, but no more than that.
Plarium Community Manager. Please note that I will be unable to respond to your private messages, review your tickets, or check your account information. All technical issues should be directed to our Support Team at plrm.me/Support_Plarium
UTC +2:00
Hundigo
4 October, 2016, 3:26 PM UTC

The post about your 2 moderators was totally wrong about it , with their explaination to finish them with only the use of "hero's", the troops you can get for free in the game. 

That both of your moderators not only 'could' knew, but also knew for sure. 


There's a different if I would post such a message on the forum or when it comes from your moderators 

  So I don't have to avoid such words when they where public on the forum. 


I know you aren't that good in debatting with arguments, and neither your moderators. If they and you can't win a debate you simply ban the forumusers. 


I personally find it totally strange that everyone connected to Plarium Games is refering to the forum, but when they have a debate on it, they simply ban the players at it or ignore it. 

I'm one of them that actually reads the forum and have also a verry good memory   Let's called a workhabbit   I'm verry good in knowing dossiers 

UTC +0:00
Hundigo
4 October, 2016, 11:09 PM UTC

Look at this, it's a respond at the message from your moderator ThatBloke from another player 


manu a dit:

@ Thatbloke,

il est impossible de faire des haut niveau de positions qu'avec des légers et des lourds.

Une position de lvl 60 a une puissance moyenne de 285000 points de puissance. Imaginons que cela corresponde à la moyenne de tes 60 positions offensives ou défensives et prenons uniquement les 30 offensives. On arrive à 285000*30 soit 8550000 points de puissance. SI tu veux fabriquer des myrmidons et des hoplites pour moitié soit 4275000 points de puissance il te faut des semaines entières (faites le calcul c'est assez simple) et donc tu ne vas pouvoir jouer tes positions que tous les 3 à 6 mois si tu veux en faire un certain nombre. Ce n'est pas avec les qq missions journalières que l'on peut faire que l'on peut gagner suffisamment de boost pour réduire ce temps de manière importante. ou alors il faut en acheter un max. Perso avec des positions max lvl 70 je ne peux pas en faire souvent en ne jouant que ma production de légers et lourds. Je rajoute donc souvent les sarris gagnés en évènements journaliers de coa et des sarris produits.

Je ne parle même pas de positions supérieures. Donc soit tu banques beaucoup, soit plarium te rétribue en boost ou en unités ;-)

Bon jeu a tous

Manu

UTC +0:00
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