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Not having to feed your troops

5 Replies
georgelewter
12 March, 2016, 3:11 AM UTC
I like the game better when you had to fed your troops. I have ran across people with a lot of money to spend and they will buy an over whelming amount of troops not worrying about feeding them, this makes it impossible for people like me who do not have a lot of money to be able to take my Coalition to Victory in the taking of a Pan. This is not fair to anyone and I think it needs to be changed back, let the ones who bought a lot of troops put them on hold until they have enough grain to feed them, they cannot use them and give them a time limit to get them up to the grain limits too feed their troops.
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ThatBloke
12 March, 2016, 3:26 AM UTC

Actually, this has to be tempered a bit. Here is why :



- You still have to feed them, only they can't dismiss. This means grain is a permanent problem for people having a huge army, as their grain is perpetually vanishing quite fast. Ok, this has not changed from before. :)



- They never dismissed when they were either stored inside the acropolis, or defending pantheons / friends / colonies, besieging, nor marching.

They could only dismiss in one case : when they wer put out to defend your own walls, and only in this case.

I know this detail was not made clear, neither in the help screen nor in the warning message, but it really awlays has worked like that.



- As a corollary, fresh produced troops were the most likely to dismiss, since most players wouldn't defen their walls and just store all their troops inside their acropolis.

Since high end players are raiding all day long to feed their troops (as first of all, they have enough offense to do this) and have always ensured they had enough grain before logging off, this means the first victims of troops desertion were mostly newbies.

Since they had mostly no idea of what was going on, they were perpetually complaining and reporting to plarium about their troops vanishing as they were produced.



So in the end, considering 99% of the victims were fresh new players and veterans were aware enough to never get caught by the phenomenon, Plarium decided to remove this feature.



I pity the fool
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spapamix
12 March, 2016, 12:02 PM UTC

i think georgelewter has right. At least troop desertion was a balancing factor and an incentive for the players who stack troops to use their fleets for trading besides raiding.

 Now, there is an overabundance of grain offer in the port because nobody needs it. For what after all? To build more troops or to upgrade the agreements? The stackers are already strong enough. That makes the game unexciting to play, because  players who have lost their troops and NEED to exchange THE EXCESS GRAIN with THE OTHER 2 RESOURCES , cant  rebuild  and cant pose a challenge. 


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ThatBloke
12 March, 2016, 12:40 PM UTC

You're confusing two things, that yes, happened at the same time, but are disconnected. Actually 3 of them. ^^


1) Yes, it could be incentive, or actually, so we thought, before realizing desertion never concerned any experimented player. I actually NEVER lost ANY unit. My troops are always stored inside my acropolis, and when they weren't, I've always stored enough food for days, if not weeks.


2) They added the missing bonus to the temple of Demeter level 1, from 0% to 4%. Suddenly our grain consumption fell down from 7% to 3%, immediately allowing to upkeep more than twice as many troops without getting negative on grain, and without doing anything !


3) They also added an undocumented +33% to farms production. This is actually the only reason for grain overflow, as it changed every city production, including abandonned ones.

This was the only reason for the grain trade crisis.



However,

Armies are huge now only because players have been playing Persians for over two full years now, and armies are vowed to get bigger and bigger as they grow, allowing to play higher levels for even bigger payouts, etc.

Some old players reaching 100 M offense and even more was inevitable, sooner or later (and I'm not talking about coiners here, getting them within a few weeks).

We all thought desertion was an incentive, but at the time, we thought troops could dismiss while inside the acropolis or sent outside, which actually proved to be wrong.

When all this mess arose, we had people having much more than 100 millions of combat value already, and it has never been a problem for them : they just raided daily and problem solved. Of course, the additional grain and reduced consumption from the updated temple allowed them to upkeep bigger armies even if troops would still be dismissing, until they reached the new limit and became negative again (which I reached quite fast then, because of what I wrote above about Persians and levelling up).


So OK, troops are not dismissing anymore, but it has never bothered us in fact.

But it did bother new players who were too weak to raid and get enough food. We've all gone there : before we could build the temple, we were forever struggling for food.

This feature was actually stressful for beginners, but has never been for strong players. So was it really worth keeping ? And why would you handicap beginners ? Are they really a threat for you ?

Since the grain overflow is coming from the farms 33% permanent boost, it would have change nothing anyway.

If you really want grain to become rare again, then you should ask for the 33% boost to be removed instead. Else you're just illogical, asking for somehting that's totally unrelated.


However,

Even if grain is flowing, and even if big armies players have never cared about desertion because it was easily addressed, they still need lots of grain to produce troops and sign agreements, so they still have to get some. I'm actually permanently lacking grain, because it's ticking down at almost 1 grain per second. And I do need grain.

I've even traded timber and bronze for grain, and I'm happy with idiots still dumping grain, while both high end players and beginners without a temple ofDemeter are still needing grain so much...

So I'll give you the same answer as before : grain prices are only what YOU chose to offer. If you're going on dumping it while lots people of people are still needing some badly, then you're doing them a present, but please stop blaming the game : you the  dumpers are the only ones responsible for its low price.

I have offered to trade grain for timber or bronze many times, and I didn't have to offer at 2:1 rates to have it bought. There are always people around needing grain, and they're wise enough to select offers based on distance and travel time, provided the rate is reasonable (but not the lowest).

When people will stop dumping grain at 2:1, they'll realize nothing has been broken, but their own behavior.

I pity the fool
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Hundigo
12 March, 2016, 1:13 PM UTC

ThatBloke,  forumuser Spapamix is right. He's not talking about grainconsumption , he's talking about the result after a battle and not able to rebuild at that moment. Because after a battle you have lost troops.  But at that moment your grainconsumption also change. Less troops after the battle is also less grainconsumption after the battle. 


There are enough ways in the game to get grain. But there aren't enough ways in the game to gain the other also necessarry resources. 
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ThatBloke
13 March, 2016, 4:38 AM UTC

You mean grain will rise faster ?

Well, we could see it as a compensation for having lost troops.

And it has always been the case anyway, with just the 33% factor as a difference...


Anyway, where is it a problem ? Your total grain is still limitated to 220k or so. You still can't build more than a few thousandths of infantry units, or a dozen of cavalry with this. And it still takes days to produce.

And even if it's not going down like mine, your grain will always grow slower than your timber and bronze, that are not impaired by your troops consumption.


No, the only thing that now allows for blazing fast giant armies is the extensive use of money.

Remember when I lost 60% of my troops ? I'm still around 70% of what I had. It takes a damn lot of time to recover just playing the game, even though I've reached level 75 Persian positions now.






Oh, and while I'm there, maybe I should also address another common misconception :

NO, you troops have never been dismissing just because your grain balance was negative.

They could do so only when you didn't have any grain left.

So as long as you had even only 1 grain left, no unit could dismiss. All you had to do was refilling your granaries and be done for hours, days, weeks or even months, depending on how badly negative you were.


I'm telling this because the warning text was both deceiving and imprecise, and lots of players were stressing because it appeared as soon as your troops started to eat more than your farms were producing, every time youer hovering your mouse over the War Council, etc. and it's actually still bothering me every time I build troops (I've been used to just triple click on the button and not even read anything for years now).

But they didn't have to stress. As indicated in this warning, they could just ask their friends to send them some galleys, or just raid by themselves. or actually, just go on with their stocks.


So in the end, the desertion feature had very limitated impacts, but bothered mostly low level and resourceless players.

This was quite unfair, and in the end, removing it wasn't the worst move plarium did, by far.


I pity the fool
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