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Lower Gold Climb, F2P

Lower Gold Climb, F2P

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dthorne04Moderator
Nov 30, 2021, 18:4711/30/21
12/30/20
5223

I just want to respond to the part on RNG/drops specifically. I'm not really a huge fan of the premise, "What if I get luckier or unluckier", because it's not a valid strategy. 

We should clearly do the thing that's rooted in statistics and in this case it's what gives us the best shot at the most meaningful gear, especially given what we can get from Dragon and how important it is early game. You're more likely to get that meaningful gear grinding Dragon 16 vs IG 13-15 and it's more energy efficient, overall.

Yes, over a small sample size the worse value dungeon may prevail, but that's why volume is key. Just because you get luckier doing the provably worse option doesn't make that option good, it just makes you results oriented.

Nov 30, 2021, 18:5011/30/21
Nov 30, 2021, 18:59(edited)
01/04/20
1719
Player J

I  am  not  avoiding  the  drop  rate.

I  am  just  trying  to  explain how  the  drop  rate  is  misleading  you  in  your  argument.


Here  is  Example:

Lets  say  we  use  Dhorne04  graph.

Lets  say  a  person  is  farming  Ice  Golem  13  &  Dragon  16.


Statistically,  the  player  has  higher  drop  rate  for  epics  &  leggos  from  Dragon  16  vs.  Ice  Golem.

The  question  is  what  does  stats mean  in  real  world  setting?

What  it  means  is  the  player  might  get  only  3  epic  +  3  leggo  gears  from  Ice  Golem.

Yet,  they  might  get  8  epic  +  8  leggo  gears  from  Dragon.


All  the  stats  are  fine  &  good,  but  how  many  of  the  above  gears  are  useable?

What  if  you  get  flat  stats  on  all  your  Dragon  gear?  

What  if  you  get  good  stats  on  all  your  Ice  Golem  gear?


The  game  has  element of  RNG.

Everything  I  am  saying  does  happen.

I'm  not  making  it  up.


In  response to  the  average time,  I'm  not  ignoring it.

I  don't  put  much  stock  on  the  average  time  to  beat  a  dungeon.


A  F2P  player  could  farm  a  dungeon  over  night  with  their  30  free  runs.

The  time  it  takes  to  win  will  be  irrelevant  because they  will  be  sleeping.


In  response to  my  Mortu  Macaab  team,  I  didn't use  the  team  as  Beginners example.

The  reason  I  showed  the  team  is  because  the  "Rare"  team  I  shows  isn't max  level.

I  wanted  to  demonstrate  the  strategy  of  the  team  in  how  it  can  be  useful.


Even in your example, 16 pieces you want to roll are much better than 6. Thanks for agreeing.

Nov 30, 2021, 19:2211/30/21
05/13/19
2434
dthorne04

I just want to respond to the part on RNG/drops specifically. I'm not really a huge fan of the premise, "What if I get luckier or unluckier", because it's not a valid strategy. 

We should clearly do the thing that's rooted in statistics and in this case it's what gives us the best shot at the most meaningful gear, especially given what we can get from Dragon and how important it is early game. You're more likely to get that meaningful gear grinding Dragon 16 vs IG 13-15 and it's more energy efficient, overall.

Yes, over a small sample size the worse value dungeon may prevail, but that's why volume is key. Just because you get luckier doing the provably worse option doesn't make that option good, it just makes you results oriented.

No  one  is  fan  of  RNG  Dthorne04,  But  RNG  happens  all  the  time!


Welcome  to  my  World!

Where  RNG  tries  to  wreck  me  on  daily  basis.


Do  you  think  RNG  cares  about  your  statistics?  Nope!

dthorne04Moderator
Nov 30, 2021, 19:5911/30/21
Nov 30, 2021, 20:03(edited)
12/30/20
5223

So your solution is to completely ignore the optimal mathematical strategy to progress in the game and then pray to get lucky doing a suboptimal thing despite the fact "RNG wrecks you on a daily basis"

Alrighty then. Getting unlucky doing the right things doesn’t mean you should stop doing them. Stop being results oriented.

Dec 1, 2021, 02:0612/01/21
05/13/19
2434

Dude,  You  need  to  take  a  second  or  two  to  think  about  what  your  saying.

You  are  letting  statistics  over  run  your  logic.


I  will  start  the  example  over  again.

We  have  a  Beginner.


The  Beginner  can  farm  the  following  Stages:

-  Stage  13  Ice  Golem

-  Stage  16  Dragon

-  Stage  13  Fire  Knight


Your  telling  me  the  Optimal  Strategy  is  to  farm  Stage  16  Dragon  vs.  Others  Dungeons.

I  am  telling  you  that  your  wrong.


This  is  were  we  are  disagreeing  with  each  other.

The  problem is  you  are  wrong  because the  most  Optimal  Strategy  for  a  Beginner  is  to  farm  all  3  Dungeons.


What  you  seem  to  be  over  looking is  "Events".

The  game  does  Ice  Golem  Farm  Events,  Dragon  Farm  Events,  &  Fire  Knight  Farm  Events.


It  is  in  the  best  interest of  all  players,  not  just  beginner,  to  farm  the  corresponding Dungeon  Related  to  the  Event  to  get  extra  rewards.


Once,  the  Beginner farms  these  different locations.

They  will  get  Gear  Drops.

The  Gear  Drops  they  get  are  based  on  the  drop  rate  percentages for  each Stage.

The  Gear  Rarity  &  Star  level  correspond  to  the  statistics  you  mentioned  in  your  chart.


These  Statistics  break  down  what  gear  a  person  could  acquire.

These  Statistics  don't  show  whether  or  not  the  gear  you  acquire will  be  useable  or  not.


Thus,  we  circle  back  to  what  I  said  previously.

The  Beginner  should  look  at  what  gear  they  acquired  which  is  useable.

The  Gear they  acquired  can  help  them  determine  what  strategy  they  should  use  in  Arena.

(The  Gear  Drops  a  person  gets  is  #2  in  the  below  list.)


To  be  successful in  Arena,  you  need  3  things:

1  -  You  need  your  Arena  team  to  have  a  Strategy.

2  -  You  need  to use  the  Best  Gear  you  have  available.

3  -  You  need  to  use  the  Best  Champion's  you  have  available.


Arena  has  2  different  successful  Strategies  

A  -  Speed  Strategy  (Go  First  Set  Ups)

B  -  Tank  Strategy  (Go  Second  Set  Ups)

(The  Strategies  are  #1  on  the  above  list.)


The  Champions  a  person  gets  comes  from  wide  range  of  things.

-  Shards

-  Campaign

-  Daily  Logins

-  Fusions

(The  Champions  are  #3  on  the  above  list.)

All  these  things  coming  together can  help  a  person  be  successful in  Arena.


The  difference between  my  arguments  &  the  arguments made  by  others  on  this  thread  is  I  am  unbiased.

I  have  had  the  pleasure  of  playing both  Strategies.


I  love  Speed  teams.

I  love  Tank  teams.


I  am  impartial  when  it  comes  to  either  set  up.

I  don't  side  with  one set  up  vs.  the  other  


And  more  importantly I  don't tell  beginners to  favor  1  set  up  more  vs.  another.

I  tell beginners to  pick  the  set  up  which  gives  them  the  best  chance  of  success.


Sometimes,  The  best  chance  of  success  for  a  Beginner  is  Speed  Team.

Sometimes,  The  best  chance  of  success  for  a  Beginner  is  Tank  Team.


Some  Beginners  will  get  Leggo  Speed  Gear  from  Dragon  +  pull  Lyssandra!

What  an  amazing  Speed  team  they  will  create.


Some  Beginners  will  get  Leggo  Resistance  Gear  from  Ice  Golem  +  pull  Krisk!

What  an  amazing  Tank  team  they  will  create.


Do  you  see  Dthorne04?

You  have  read  my  post  and  you  should  now  understand why  your  wrong.

You  should  also  understand why  I  said  Harle  Quinn  post  was  controversial.

Dec 1, 2021, 03:4812/01/21
01/04/20
1719
Player J

Dude,  You  need  to  take  a  second  or  two  to  think  about  what  your  saying.

You  are  letting  statistics  over  run  your  logic.


I  will  start  the  example  over  again.

We  have  a  Beginner.


The  Beginner  can  farm  the  following  Stages:

-  Stage  13  Ice  Golem

-  Stage  16  Dragon

-  Stage  13  Fire  Knight


Your  telling  me  the  Optimal  Strategy  is  to  farm  Stage  16  Dragon  vs.  Others  Dungeons.

I  am  telling  you  that  your  wrong.


This  is  were  we  are  disagreeing  with  each  other.

The  problem is  you  are  wrong  because the  most  Optimal  Strategy  for  a  Beginner  is  to  farm  all  3  Dungeons.


What  you  seem  to  be  over  looking is  "Events".

The  game  does  Ice  Golem  Farm  Events,  Dragon  Farm  Events,  &  Fire  Knight  Farm  Events.


It  is  in  the  best  interest of  all  players,  not  just  beginner,  to  farm  the  corresponding Dungeon  Related  to  the  Event  to  get  extra  rewards.


Once,  the  Beginner farms  these  different locations.

They  will  get  Gear  Drops.

The  Gear  Drops  they  get  are  based  on  the  drop  rate  percentages for  each Stage.

The  Gear  Rarity  &  Star  level  correspond  to  the  statistics  you  mentioned  in  your  chart.


These  Statistics  break  down  what  gear  a  person  could  acquire.

These  Statistics  don't  show  whether  or  not  the  gear  you  acquire will  be  useable  or  not.


Thus,  we  circle  back  to  what  I  said  previously.

The  Beginner  should  look  at  what  gear  they  acquired  which  is  useable.

The  Gear they  acquired  can  help  them  determine  what  strategy  they  should  use  in  Arena.

(The  Gear  Drops  a  person  gets  is  #2  in  the  below  list.)


To  be  successful in  Arena,  you  need  3  things:

1  -  You  need  your  Arena  team  to  have  a  Strategy.

2  -  You  need  to use  the  Best  Gear  you  have  available.

3  -  You  need  to  use  the  Best  Champion's  you  have  available.


Arena  has  2  different  successful  Strategies  

A  -  Speed  Strategy  (Go  First  Set  Ups)

B  -  Tank  Strategy  (Go  Second  Set  Ups)

(The  Strategies  are  #1  on  the  above  list.)


The  Champions  a  person  gets  comes  from  wide  range  of  things.

-  Shards

-  Campaign

-  Daily  Logins

-  Fusions

(The  Champions  are  #3  on  the  above  list.)

All  these  things  coming  together can  help  a  person  be  successful in  Arena.


The  difference between  my  arguments  &  the  arguments made  by  others  on  this  thread  is  I  am  unbiased.

I  have  had  the  pleasure  of  playing both  Strategies.


I  love  Speed  teams.

I  love  Tank  teams.


I  am  impartial  when  it  comes  to  either  set  up.

I  don't  side  with  one set  up  vs.  the  other  


And  more  importantly I  don't tell  beginners to  favor  1  set  up  more  vs.  another.

I  tell beginners to  pick  the  set  up  which  gives  them  the  best  chance  of  success.


Sometimes,  The  best  chance  of  success  for  a  Beginner  is  Speed  Team.

Sometimes,  The  best  chance  of  success  for  a  Beginner  is  Tank  Team.


Some  Beginners  will  get  Leggo  Speed  Gear  from  Dragon  +  pull  Lyssandra!

What  an  amazing  Speed  team  they  will  create.


Some  Beginners  will  get  Leggo  Resistance  Gear  from  Ice  Golem  +  pull  Krisk!

What  an  amazing  Tank  team  they  will  create.


Do  you  see  Dthorne04?

You  have  read  my  post  and  you  should  now  understand why  your  wrong.

You  should  also  understand why  I  said  Harle  Quinn  post  was  controversial.

You.. don't seem to understand the word "statistic" very well. I think you need to take a step back and think about what you're saying. You've had multiple people tell you that you are wrong but you keep digging in deeper. 

Dec 1, 2021, 04:0012/01/21
Dec 1, 2021, 04:34(edited)
01/02/20
126
Skadi

Most players with a free account don't are lucky enough to pull Madame Serris. And removing all buffs while debuffing their defense counters immunity and shield sets. In that context, Madame is a gamechanger.

didnt see any shield sets for 3 months....madame=warmaiden


Edited by moderator. - Harbs

dthorne04Moderator
Dec 1, 2021, 05:3112/01/21
12/30/20
5223

"Dude,  You  need  to  take  a  second  or  two  to  think  about  what  your  saying.

You  are  letting  statistics  over  run  your  logic. ."

I basically checked out after this. If you're going to straight up ignore the math involved which even with your examples proves the points I (and others) am trying to make, then there's not much else I can say to you. 

That said, there was nothing controversial about what Quinn said and I'm not sure why you keep pushing that narrative. You not agreeing with her doesn't make her stance controversial in the slightest. For the majority of players it's going to yield the best results. 

Dec 1, 2021, 08:5012/01/21
Dec 1, 2021, 08:52(edited)
10/15/20
2103
Чебупеля

didnt see any shield sets for 3 months....madame=warmaiden


Edited by moderator. - Harbs


i

Obviously no shields in arena, lol.

I don't know what you wrote in the part that was edited by Harby, but I guess it had the same and well known "quality" as your other posts in the forum.

Dec 6, 2021, 05:1612/06/21
08/18/21
165
harleQuinn

Getting up into Silver the first time is def a TON of work. Was a huge grind for me to work through Bronze 4 into Silver 1. Keep at it, post your teams here, we're here to help!

I  recently  pulled  armstrong  so  will  need  to  upgrade  him  at  some  point.  He  is  super  cheap  and  will  help  me  get  some  revenge  on  the   solo   gold  scrubs  soloing  my  whole  team!  

Dec 6, 2021, 05:2312/06/21
06/28/21
85
dthorne04

The presence of a Madame here doesn't disqualify the general point that's being made here, you can use any of the defense down options (which I'm pretty sure is the majority of the utility Madame is bringing in the fights shown here.)

The point being made here is most people who are complaining about arena need to put more time into 1) building teams that make more sense and 2) grinding out the gear to hit the requisite speeds, accuracies, etc. needed to make these competent teams. 

Madaame serris disqualifies.

There is a ton of difference wether you use one of the best debuffers in the game or a warmaiden...Serris can steal wins in situations where warmaiden can't.

Also getting speed gear items in 5 and 6 star for the entire team with the right main and substats and good rolls on elvel up is also a long term project.

Ninja is not available anymore either.

Now if the OP would have done it with Warmaiden and spirithost instead of Ninja and Serris it would be different....

dthorne04Moderator
Dec 6, 2021, 07:3312/06/21
12/30/20
5223
Scathach

Madaame serris disqualifies.

There is a ton of difference wether you use one of the best debuffers in the game or a warmaiden...Serris can steal wins in situations where warmaiden can't.

Also getting speed gear items in 5 and 6 star for the entire team with the right main and substats and good rolls on elvel up is also a long term project.

Ninja is not available anymore either.

Now if the OP would have done it with Warmaiden and spirithost instead of Ninja and Serris it would be different....

It doesn't disqualify, especially if you're able to look at the bigger picture, here. I would bet quite a bit that the vast majority of fights she won with that team while using Madame came off the defense down, followed by 2x nuke. Consequently adding more accuracy to your Warmaiden/defense down champion should duplicate the general concept here. 

Yes, it does take some work and planning to effectively build team comps that can get you into Gold I and higher, it's not supposed to be a cake walk and you need to be able to win the speed wars, usually. Unless you have even better RNG than you're talking about and are able to build a team that can go 2nd and win consistently. 

Most of the people right now who are having problems breaking into higher Silver/lower Gold are very likely to have Ninja, so that's still relevant. 

If you go back in the thread you can see where I duplicated the speeds involved, used a Deacon/Kael/Ninja and found winnable fights/situations at Gold 4, let alone lower. Played down a champ because usually you would have Khatun/Warmaiden/Kael/Ninja in the scenario/concept that is trying to be established here, and Deacon brings our speed up and defense down.

I understand what you're getting at, but if people follow the concepts laid and out put in the time to do so, they'll get there. 

Dec 6, 2021, 08:0712/06/21
01/04/20
1719
Scathach

Madaame serris disqualifies.

There is a ton of difference wether you use one of the best debuffers in the game or a warmaiden...Serris can steal wins in situations where warmaiden can't.

Also getting speed gear items in 5 and 6 star for the entire team with the right main and substats and good rolls on elvel up is also a long term project.

Ninja is not available anymore either.

Now if the OP would have done it with Warmaiden and spirithost instead of Ninja and Serris it would be different....

I have climbed to gold 4 on my slow f2p team without a def down or buff stripper. 

There was recently an event/tournament that rewarded Serris that was very easy to win even for f2p accounts, and Ninja was free for months. I don't see anything that would disqualifies anyone. 

harleQuinnModerator
Dec 6, 2021, 17:0112/06/21
02/24/19
7109
Scathach

Madaame serris disqualifies.

There is a ton of difference wether you use one of the best debuffers in the game or a warmaiden...Serris can steal wins in situations where warmaiden can't.

Also getting speed gear items in 5 and 6 star for the entire team with the right main and substats and good rolls on elvel up is also a long term project.

Ninja is not available anymore either.

Now if the OP would have done it with Warmaiden and spirithost instead of Ninja and Serris it would be different....

Sorry to break it to you, but I definitely am not wasting limited resources on farming and then ranking up a Warmaiden to demonstrate how speed/nuke teams work.

Almost every single fight, Serris was used as an AoE Defense Down champ. If you are using Aleks, Uugo, Dhukk, Stag Knight, Tayrel, Dagger or Warmaiden, you would just want to avoid teams you suspect will be go second, super defense teams. So no fighting Krisks, Nehkrets, etc unless you are using a great provoker to lock them down multiple+multiple turns.

And sure, not everyone has Ninja. But fortunately you're getting a wonderful replacement today/tomorrow for Warmaiden in Aleks/S1mple. Then you just nuke with your starter, and move on! This was how I got to gold initially in my main account. High Khatun into Dhukk into Athel into lots of different options for lockdown. Eventually I pulled an Uugo and she went into the 4th spot to block buffs.



Dec 6, 2021, 17:2612/06/21
11/16/20
1001
harleQuinn

Sorry to break it to you, but I definitely am not wasting limited resources on farming and then ranking up a Warmaiden to demonstrate how speed/nuke teams work.

Almost every single fight, Serris was used as an AoE Defense Down champ. If you are using Aleks, Uugo, Dhukk, Stag Knight, Tayrel, Dagger or Warmaiden, you would just want to avoid teams you suspect will be go second, super defense teams. So no fighting Krisks, Nehkrets, etc unless you are using a great provoker to lock them down multiple+multiple turns.

And sure, not everyone has Ninja. But fortunately you're getting a wonderful replacement today/tomorrow for Warmaiden in Aleks/S1mple. Then you just nuke with your starter, and move on! This was how I got to gold initially in my main account. High Khatun into Dhukk into Athel into lots of different options for lockdown. Eventually I pulled an Uugo and she went into the 4th spot to block buffs.



No idea why everyone is still pointing to serris as some insta win, you use what champs you are lucky enough to get.

I have serris myself now but I got her long after being in g4 as well as obtaining arbiter.

I used the champions I had available, my first aoe defense down I used in arena was war maiden, then i upgraded to stag knight, then I upgraded to Uugo, and now I use serris or Uugo depending on the team I face. Madame serris is not going to solo carry your team into gold.

Dec 14, 2021, 17:0412/14/21
07/23/20
30

I spent 4 months in gold on my FTP  4 then recently hit the part of the Arby missions where I need to hit G4 and cannot get out of G3 for the life of me, arena is utterly horrible ATM for FTP accounts.

harleQuinnModerator
Dec 14, 2021, 20:2012/14/21
02/24/19
7109
adamoslmfb

I spent 4 months in gold on my FTP  4 then recently hit the part of the Arby missions where I need to hit G4 and cannot get out of G3 for the life of me, arena is utterly horrible ATM for FTP accounts.

It seems tough yeah. You want to start a new thread and share your team and we'll see if we can help?

Dec 23, 2021, 17:2612/23/21
12/23/21
1


i


Dec 23, 2021, 18:0012/23/21
06/20/19
2184

Most people that wish to make a point, at least try to make the point.  Rather than just throwing up a SS and expecting everyone to get it.  Have you seen the crowd here?  Not everyone will understand.

harleQuinnModerator
Dec 23, 2021, 18:2612/23/21
02/24/19
7109
Angwil

Most people that wish to make a point, at least try to make the point.  Rather than just throwing up a SS and expecting everyone to get it.  Have you seen the crowd here?  Not everyone will understand.

The crowd around here gets ROUGH.


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