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Speed Comparison Tournament

Speed Comparison Tournament

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May 19, 2021, 14:1305/19/21
06/25/20
850

Now that I think upon this a bit more, I believe the problem isn't so much speed, nor even team power ratings.

The problem is how huge of a difference minor changes in speed make. Literally having a single extra speed over your opponent could be the difference between winning and losing. No other stat suffers from this problem.

I don't have any great solution for this at the moment, but it almost feels like there should be some variability in how speed works. Literally every other stat has ranges - the same attack from the same champion against the same champion with the same stats and buffs will result in different amounts of damage being done, because of those ranges.

I wonder if speed worked similarly, if we'd see this be less of a problem - simply because teams wouldn't be able to rely exclusively on speed to win fights anymore. I know this would completely mess up CB and other places, so perhaps if they just changed arena specifically, to make it so that every turn, your TM fill rate is based on your speed multiplied by a random weight - between, say, 0.9 and 1.1 - maybe that would force teams to not just focus on getting the perfect speed balance?

May 19, 2021, 14:3905/19/21
07/05/19
748
Trips

And then the power stat will be useless to both an intelligent person and complete idiot....

Seriously, now it gives us an idea of team "strength" in terms of resist and/or CD (I think these are 2 most heavily weighted).  We infer a speed team based on the comp/leader, and know the range (obv very tight at the moment) based on tier we are in and whether they are at the bottom of our list or top.  

Weighting everything equally removes all value from the power stat imo.  

I beg to differ, with everything weighted equally, team power will make it so those who have around the same total stat will be more easily collected at around the same group in the ranking, for too long I think speed were waaaaaay too hidden that it's almost impossible to gauge, and high resist high defense people were being too easy too spot and to be avoided denying them their defensive wins.


By making everything equal, it would actually be able to make a more varied teams, speed would still be king, but then people would need to start to heighten their accuracy because they can no longer avoid high resist teams.


One of why speed becomes so important in Arena's meta is because it is just so hidden and it's closest thing that can counter them (Def/Resist) are just very much exposed and can easily be avoided.


So yeah, ALL STAT should be weighted the same. Making choosing opponent to be more fair.

May 19, 2021, 14:4905/19/21
12/19/19
2705

LOL, changing the power rating will have absolutely ZERO impact on the Arena meta.  


@kramaswamy.kr , are you proposing adding RNG to TM boosts? Certainly one of the most interesting things proposed.  May be great for arena, but horrible for PVE lol.  Unfortunately I am going to finally cave and ditch my resist team for a speed team.  I'd rather fight 10 matches a day and go 6-4 in 5 minutes then go 5-0 in 20 minutes.





 

May 19, 2021, 15:0805/19/21
May 19, 2021, 15:11(edited)
05/03/20
160

Speed meta is a blight on the game.  There is no real building a team, weighing the options to create a good team is as simple as using the speed calculator.  Arena has nothing to do with anything but speed.  It's absurd that any SINGLE metric is how a team is built.  No brainwork required.  Use speed calculator, speed tune and winzors.  Arena isn't a thinking persons game at all, it's a knuckle dragger festival.  Where is the balance in stuff as much speed as you can on a team?  Funny thing is balance used to be a huge factor in most stat driven games.  Not in this piece o' garbage speed fest.

May 19, 2021, 15:1205/19/21
06/25/20
850
Trips

LOL, changing the power rating will have absolutely ZERO impact on the Arena meta.  


@kramaswamy.kr , are you proposing adding RNG to TM boosts? Certainly one of the most interesting things proposed.  May be great for arena, but horrible for PVE lol.  Unfortunately I am going to finally cave and ditch my resist team for a speed team.  I'd rather fight 10 matches a day and go 6-4 in 5 minutes then go 5-0 in 20 minutes.





 

Not to TM boosts - to TM fill rate. Rather than having TM fill rate be static based on speed, have there be some variability each turn, so that turn order is no longer deterministic, But as mentioned, applied exclusively to arena.

May 19, 2021, 15:1305/19/21
12/19/19
2705
kumacho

Speed meta is a blight on the game.  There is no real building a team, weighing the options to create a good team is as simple as using the speed calculator.  Arena has nothing to do with anything but speed.  It's absurd that any SINGLE metric is how a team is built.  No brainwork required.  Use speed calculator, speed tune and winzors.  Arena isn't a thinking persons game at all, it's a knuckle dragger festival.  Where is the balance in stuff as much speed as you can on a team?  Funny thing is balance used to be a huge factor in most stat driven games.  Not in this piece o' garbage speed fest.

This is mostly true.  But it is also true for pretty much ALL PvE content as well.  It's just unfortunate that the classic arena bar has been raised to D25 / Hard Doomtower levels.

You can argue FK is about strategy, requiring CA or reflect damage to take down shield.  But the reality is nobody does that.  You just go at a 2:1 ration and bypass it...

May 19, 2021, 15:2605/19/21
12/20/20
13
kramaswamy.kr

Now that I think upon this a bit more, I believe the problem isn't so much speed, nor even team power ratings.

The problem is how huge of a difference minor changes in speed make. Literally having a single extra speed over your opponent could be the difference between winning and losing. No other stat suffers from this problem.

I don't have any great solution for this at the moment, but it almost feels like there should be some variability in how speed works. Literally every other stat has ranges - the same attack from the same champion against the same champion with the same stats and buffs will result in different amounts of damage being done, because of those ranges.

I wonder if speed worked similarly, if we'd see this be less of a problem - simply because teams wouldn't be able to rely exclusively on speed to win fights anymore. I know this would completely mess up CB and other places, so perhaps if they just changed arena specifically, to make it so that every turn, your TM fill rate is based on your speed multiplied by a random weight - between, say, 0.9 and 1.1 - maybe that would force teams to not just focus on getting the perfect speed balance?

@kramaswamy.kr you said “Literally having a single extra speed over your opponent could be the difference between winning and losing.” This is spot on!!! But I feel you can’t really mess with speed that much because as a hero stat there are so many other variables within the game that would get messed up. It’s why I was thinking the easiest way to stop the situation of “Literally having a single extra speed over your opponent could be the difference between winning and losing.” is to increase team survivability in pvp in general. Now it’s not the speed or the lack of going first that kills you per se ... it’s the buffs and debuffs that get applied by the team that goes first that does the insta-killing technically. So I think an easy fix without jacking up the rest of the game is to just water down buffs/debuffs when in the arena specifically. Using the point Player J attempted earlier ... what if say all buffs/debuffs are halved in arena? So “decrease defense by 60%” is now 30% and “increase attack by 50%” is now 25% etc etc. I feel with a change like that you are not only increasing your survivability past the first wave but it really would make arena more tactical in general without changing comps and less crossing your fingers and hoping you have more speed than your opponent. All this without changing anything for the rest of the game (the pve side).

May 19, 2021, 15:3305/19/21
06/25/20
850
Lindron

@kramaswamy.kr you said “Literally having a single extra speed over your opponent could be the difference between winning and losing.” This is spot on!!! But I feel you can’t really mess with speed that much because as a hero stat there are so many other variables within the game that would get messed up. It’s why I was thinking the easiest way to stop the situation of “Literally having a single extra speed over your opponent could be the difference between winning and losing.” is to increase team survivability in pvp in general. Now it’s not the speed or the lack of going first that kills you per se ... it’s the buffs and debuffs that get applied by the team that goes first that does the insta-killing technically. So I think an easy fix without jacking up the rest of the game is to just water down buffs/debuffs when in the arena specifically. Using the point Player J attempted earlier ... what if say all buffs/debuffs are halved in arena? So “decrease defense by 60%” is now 30% and “increase attack by 50%” is now 25% etc etc. I feel with a change like that you are not only increasing your survivability past the first wave but it really would make arena more tactical in general without changing comps and less crossing your fingers and hoping you have more speed than your opponent. All this without changing anything for the rest of the game (the pve side).

All that does is moves the goalpost. As new heroes come out, and new items, we'll eventually just reach the same point again. The root problem of speed remains unaddressed.

May 19, 2021, 15:4205/19/21
07/05/19
748
Trips

LOL, changing the power rating will have absolutely ZERO impact on the Arena meta.  


@kramaswamy.kr , are you proposing adding RNG to TM boosts? Certainly one of the most interesting things proposed.  May be great for arena, but horrible for PVE lol.  Unfortunately I am going to finally cave and ditch my resist team for a speed team.  I'd rather fight 10 matches a day and go 6-4 in 5 minutes then go 5-0 in 20 minutes.





 

I know, as I said, speed will still be king.

But then people can no longer just build speed exclusively. Heck it would force people to build on other stats too like the higher end of Arena.


BUT, it would never happen because by making SPEED as the ultimate stat in Arena, Plarium can make anything that is connected with the stat more rare and then can sell it at HIGHER price than others.


Just look at how they sell speed sets and speed glyph, they're just ridiculously higher priced.


And making it so other stat have a more close importance will just destroy that monetisation strategy.

May 19, 2021, 15:4505/19/21
12/20/20
13
kramaswamy.kr

All that does is moves the goalpost. As new heroes come out, and new items, we'll eventually just reach the same point again. The root problem of speed remains unaddressed.

Not  sure  how  it  would  affect  the  game  long  term  ...  that  would  depend  on  Plarium.  But  i  do  believe  in  the  short  term  this  is  a  change  they  could  make  overnight  that  would  solve  many  of  the  issues  arena  goers  from  bronze  1  to  platinum are  dealing  with.  Honestly  i  dont  see  how  nerfing  buffs/debuffs  a  certain  mathematical  percentage  to  make  buffs  and  debuffs  work  accordingly  based  on  whether  you  are  hitting  pve  boss  or  a  pvp  team  would  be  that  hard  to  maintain  going  forward.  There  are  ample  other  established games  out  there  that  already  successfully use  this  as  a  way  to  balance their  pvp  and  pve  gameplay.

May 19, 2021, 15:5605/19/21
10/15/20
742

I don't see speed as "the meta" in arena quite now. Where are all the speed teams?


i

A lot of teams use defense with shield sets, revivers and stuff like that to fight against speed teams.

May 19, 2021, 16:1105/19/21
12/20/20
13
Skadi

I don't see speed as "the meta" in arena quite now. Where are all the speed teams?


i

A lot of teams use defense with shield sets, revivers and stuff like that to fight against speed teams.

1)  I  could  show  pics  all  day  that  show  the  speed  teams  ... finding  a  convenient snapshot  does  not  make  a  wrong  or  a  right.

2)  Building  specific teams  is  something players  do  for  opponets  that  they  will  fight  repeatedly like  Spider  or  CB  ...  the  fact  that  folks  feel  the  need  to  spend  their  time  and  resources  on  very  specific heroes  and  comps  just  to  combat  speed  teams  in  arena  itself  is  proves  that  it  is  an  issue  that  is  common. Thanks  for  that  assist  😁👍

May 19, 2021, 16:3005/19/21
10/15/20
742
Lindron

1)  I  could  show  pics  all  day  that  show  the  speed  teams  ... finding  a  convenient snapshot  does  not  make  a  wrong  or  a  right.

2)  Building  specific teams  is  something players  do  for  opponets  that  they  will  fight  repeatedly like  Spider  or  CB  ...  the  fact  that  folks  feel  the  need  to  spend  their  time  and  resources  on  very  specific heroes  and  comps  just  to  combat  speed  teams  in  arena  itself  is  proves  that  it  is  an  issue  that  is  common. Thanks  for  that  assist  😁👍

So, the fact that it's possible to create a combo of champs that beats speed teams shows that arena is NOT all about speed. Thanks for that assist.

May 19, 2021, 16:4505/19/21
May 19, 2021, 16:50(edited)
12/20/20
13
Skadi

So, the fact that it's possible to create a combo of champs that beats speed teams shows that arena is NOT all about speed. Thanks for that assist.

You  can  create  a  comp  for  everything  in  the  game  ...  but  that  is  not  fesible  now  is  it.

My  point  of  ....  "Building  specific teams  is  something players  do  for  opponets  that  they  will  fight  repeatedly like  Spider  or  CB  ...  the  fact  that  folks  feel  the  need  to  spend  their  time  and  resources  on  very  specific heroes  and  comps  just  to  combat  speed  teams  in  arena  itself  is  proves  that  it  is  an  issue  that  is  common."  ....  still  stands  unscathed  despite  your  failed  attempt  at proving  the  exception  is  the  rule  via  whataboutism. 

May 19, 2021, 16:4505/19/21
06/25/20
850
Skadi

I don't see speed as "the meta" in arena quite now. Where are all the speed teams?


i

A lot of teams use defense with shield sets, revivers and stuff like that to fight against speed teams.

I'm not sure about at Silver 2, but I can guarantee you that at Gold 4, 90% of the teams are speed nuke teams. The remaining 10% are generally teams running things like Tormin or Hegemon, or have very high resist and defence.

May 20, 2021, 14:5905/20/21
05/13/19
2124
Lindron

You  can  create  a  comp  for  everything  in  the  game  ...  but  that  is  not  fesible  now  is  it.

My  point  of  ....  "Building  specific teams  is  something players  do  for  opponets  that  they  will  fight  repeatedly like  Spider  or  CB  ...  the  fact  that  folks  feel  the  need  to  spend  their  time  and  resources  on  very  specific heroes  and  comps  just  to  combat  speed  teams  in  arena  itself  is  proves  that  it  is  an  issue  that  is  common."  ....  still  stands  unscathed  despite  your  failed  attempt  at proving  the  exception  is  the  rule  via  whataboutism. 

Your  wrong.

Skadi  is  telling  the  truth.


In  addition,  It  is  feasible for  a  person  to  create  different  team  composition for  everything  in  the  game.

Players  have  done  this!


Do  you  think  a  player  with  20  Mil  Player  Power  only  has  5  hero's  maxed?

Don't  be  silly.


I  only  have  5  Mil  Player  Power  and  I  almost  have  a  different team  for  everything.

The  only  teams  I  haven't finish  are  New  Stage  21-25  Dungeon  Teams.

I  am  in  the  process of  leveling heroes for  those  teams.

May 20, 2021, 15:1205/20/21
02/29/20
513

You  can  build  specific  teams  in  Arena  to  counter  certain  champions-  sometimes  that  is  the  only  way  you  can  fight  them,  such  as  using  a  SS  or  Siphi  against  Tormin,  or  Immunity  or  Duchess  against Hege.  You  should  have  many  different  Arena  champions  built  to  counter  different  types  of  teams.  That  is  part  of  the  of  the  diversity  that  allows  many  different  strategies to  be  created  to  counter  the  many  kinds  of  Arena  teams.

May 20, 2021, 15:1305/20/21
02/29/20
513

The  whole  point  of  the  defensive/resistance  teams  are  to  counter  the  speed  meta  in  the  first  place,  so  there  would  be  more  of  those  teams  thab  speed  teams.

May 20, 2021, 16:3505/20/21
12/20/20
13
Player J

Your  wrong.

Skadi  is  telling  the  truth.


In  addition,  It  is  feasible for  a  person  to  create  different  team  composition for  everything  in  the  game.

Players  have  done  this!


Do  you  think  a  player  with  20  Mil  Player  Power  only  has  5  hero's  maxed?

Don't  be  silly.


I  only  have  5  Mil  Player  Power  and  I  almost  have  a  different team  for  everything.

The  only  teams  I  haven't finish  are  New  Stage  21-25  Dungeon  Teams.

I  am  in  the  process of  leveling heroes for  those  teams.

Player  J  you  started  your  whole random trolling  campaign against  me  by  stating  speed  teams  are  only  an  issue  to  "low  tier  players"  yet  you  keep  trying  to  prove  it  is  not  an  issue  by  talking  about  what  high  players do/have. Those  are  your  own  words  sir.  You  are  talking  out  both  ends  and  you  are  contradicting  your  own  self.

Here  is  the  scoop  Player  J  ...  Im  new  to  Raid  comments  and  i  had  to  do  some  looking  around   and  i  found  just  what  i  figured  ...  you  are  the  troll  in  here. Like  literally  the  definition of  a  troll. The  fact  of  the  matter  is  I ,  as  a  customer  of  Plarium,  posed  an  opinion  of  their  product  to  them  ...  and  while  it  is  an  open  forum  and  all  can  speak  you  sir  are  just  being  rude  and  confrontational for  no  reason.  This  of  course  can  leave  a  bad  taste  in  the  mouths  of  Plariums  customers  and  Plarium  might  should  consider taking  a  look  at  that  and  you.  If  you  feel  so  strongly about  what  you  have  to  say  then  at  some  point  you  would  be  better served  to  start  your  own  thread  rather  than  trying  to  repeatly  attack  one  of  Plariums  customers  because  they  have  a  different opinion on  the  product  than  you.  Do  you  do  this  for  every  product  you  use?

Anyhow  while  it  was  fun  retorting  to  your  attempts  at  trying  to  flex  ...  this  will  have  to  be  the  end  of  out  conversation as  there  is  zero  good  reasons  to  speak  with  someone  whose  whole  intention is to troll  people.  Cya!

May 20, 2021, 16:4705/20/21
12/20/20
13
Destroyer39

You  can  build  specific  teams  in  Arena  to  counter  certain  champions-  sometimes  that  is  the  only  way  you  can  fight  them,  such  as  using  a  SS  or  Siphi  against  Tormin,  or  Immunity  or  Duchess  against Hege.  You  should  have  many  different  Arena  champions  built  to  counter  different  types  of  teams.  That  is  part  of  the  of  the  diversity  that  allows  many  different  strategies to  be  created  to  counter  the  many  kinds  of  Arena  teams.

I  hear  ya  ...  and  i  get  it  that  having  a  bunch  of  options  with  heroes  is  literally  what  this  game  is  about.  But  my  overarching  point  i  was  making,  before  folks  like  Player  J  hijacked  the  convo,  was  that  alot  of  the  problems folks  have  in  arena  be  it  low  tier  of  high  tier  could  be  solved  by  watering  down  the  buffs/debuffs  in  the  arena  ...  then  you  can  compete  with  whatever  heroes  you  may  have  on  hand  rather  than  having  to  keep  scrolling  because  you  cant  compete  with  their  comp  just  simply  because  you  dont  have  a  specific hero. Plus  i  think  it  would  make  it  more  balanced  in  arena  to  where  your  matches  are  actually  exciting rather  than  I  win  or  you  win  in  like  10  seconds.