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Arena offense attack order

Arena offense attack order

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Nov 21, 2020, 14:1411/21/20
10/26/20
9

Arena offense attack order

Hello, I have been playing this game for a couple of months and I think I understand how turn order works, however I can't understand whats going on here. Basically, 90% of the time my team attacks in the order: spirithost, madame serris then kael however very occasionally my kael will attack second which obviously could mean I don't win the battle since I haven't dropped the enemy defense beforehand.

For context, my spirit host has 183 speed with 98 base (I am using her aura). Not really sure if the game works in absolute values so she would have 192.8 or if this is rounded to 10 or truncated to 9.

My madame serris has 181 speed with 100 base so in game she has 191. 

Finally my kael has 179 speed with 103 base so either 189 or 189.3.

I have checked my masteries, the only one I could see that could be somewhat relevent is LoS of kael however I have him in lifesteal + attack sets.


Any help is much appreciated, thanks


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31
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22
Comments
Nov 21, 2020, 14:3811/21/20
04/13/20
313

Unlesss I remember it wrong, the Speed increase is counted from base Speed.

Nov 21, 2020, 15:0311/21/20
06/27/20
304

Enemy champions must interfere with your turn meter.

For example, this is Valkyrie passive: "This Champion’s Turn Meter will be increased by 10% each time an enemy Champion places a buff. Enemy Champions will have their Turn Meters decreased by 10% for each buff they receive."
Turn meter decrease is a subject to resistance check, so it can affect one of your champions but not another.

Here is an excellent tool for arena speed calculations: https://www.deadwoodjedi.com/arena-calculator

Nov 21, 2020, 15:1811/21/20
10/26/20
9
SunnyRay

Enemy champions must interfere with your turn meter.

For example, this is Valkyrie passive: "This Champion’s Turn Meter will be increased by 10% each time an enemy Champion places a buff. Enemy Champions will have their Turn Meters decreased by 10% for each buff they receive."
Turn meter decrease is a subject to resistance check, so it can affect one of your champions but not another.

Here is an excellent tool for arena speed calculations: https://www.deadwoodjedi.com/arena-calculator

Would this come into play on madame's passive shield then?

Nov 21, 2020, 15:2111/21/20
10/26/20
9
WatchdogCZ

Unlesss I remember it wrong, the Speed increase is counted from base Speed.

I think you're right, In my original post I added the aura bonus to the base speed values.

Nov 21, 2020, 15:2511/21/20
06/27/20
304
leotho

Would this come into play on madame's passive shield then?

Probably. Also on Spirithost attack buff.

Nov 21, 2020, 15:3111/21/20
06/27/20
304
leotho

I think you're right, In my original post I added the aura bonus to the base speed values.

Correct. Also, the game uses real numbers. It rounds them for display purposes only.

Nov 21, 2020, 19:3311/21/20
Nov 21, 2020, 19:37(edited)
05/13/19
2434

It is impossible to help you because you are leaving out to much information


The game is so complex every detail can affect the battle.

- We would need to know the 4 heroes you used in the fight.

- We would need to know your hero speeds.

- We would need to know the Aura you used.

- We would need to know the masteries your heroes have.

- We would need to know the gear your heroes are wearing.

- We would need to know the 4 heroes the enemy used in the fight.

- We would need to know the move order in the battle for both sides.

- We would need to know any masteries which pop up during the fight that you saw in battle.

- We would also need to know when your hero's got out of sync in the battle.


I can make guesses on what happen, but my guesses could be wrong.

So many different things which can change the outcome of your move order.


Nov 21, 2020, 19:4711/21/20
10/26/20
9
SunnyRay

Probably. Also on Spirithost attack buff.

This must have been it then. Since spirithost attack buff would lead to the drop in turn meter for both kael and madame (unless this can be resisted?) then madame should still be ahead. 

Interesting that even though madame's passive is applied at the start of her turn it could mean she doesn't get one.

Nov 21, 2020, 20:0811/21/20
10/26/20
9
Player J

It is impossible to help you because you are leaving out to much information


The game is so complex every detail can affect the battle.

- We would need to know the 4 heroes you used in the fight.

- We would need to know your hero speeds.

- We would need to know the Aura you used.

- We would need to know the masteries your heroes have.

- We would need to know the gear your heroes are wearing.

- We would need to know the 4 heroes the enemy used in the fight.

- We would need to know the move order in the battle for both sides.

- We would need to know any masteries which pop up during the fight that you saw in battle.

- We would also need to know when your hero's got out of sync in the battle.


I can make guesses on what happen, but my guesses could be wrong.

So many different things which can change the outcome of your move order.


I have included all the relevent info in the first post: - I'm only using 3 for the special challenge arena tourny (this is my normal arena team -apoth)

-speeds included

aura included (spirithost)

Only kael has proper masteries and even then they do not affect his speed.

madames in 2 speed and an accuracy set 

I'm hovering gold 1 -2 and I win most of my battles by out-speeding the enemy. All the cases are when all my champs have gone 1st, 2nd, 3rd. The only difference being the order of kael and madame.

Finally, I didn't know there were passives like valkyrie as SunnyRay mentioned. This is the most likely cause I can see.

Nov 21, 2020, 20:2011/21/20
05/13/19
2434

Their are masteries which do affect a heroes turn meter which in turn can affects your champions move order.

Nov 21, 2020, 20:3811/21/20
Nov 21, 2020, 20:41(edited)
06/27/20
304
leotho

This must have been it then. Since spirithost attack buff would lead to the drop in turn meter for both kael and madame (unless this can be resisted?) then madame should still be ahead. 

Interesting that even though madame's passive is applied at the start of her turn it could mean she doesn't get one.

I don't have a proof for this exact case, but extrapolating my other game experience it must be able to be resisted.

I don't own Madame, I read her passive as "at the start of each turn" and thought it happens at the start or other champion turns too, so turn meter decrease can happen at the start of Spirithost turn. 

I don't belive that "even though passive is applied at the start of her turn it could mean she doesn't get one". It goes against my understanding of the game.  Please tell me if you see this exact thing happen. Can 2 Madames use their passives, decrease turn meters and pass a turn to the other one infinitely? :)

Nov 21, 2020, 21:1011/21/20
04/13/20
313
SunnyRay

I don't have a proof for this exact case, but extrapolating my other game experience it must be able to be resisted.

I don't own Madame, I read her passive as "at the start of each turn" and thought it happens at the start or other champion turns too, so turn meter decrease can happen at the start of Spirithost turn. 

I don't belive that "even though passive is applied at the start of her turn it could mean she doesn't get one". It goes against my understanding of the game.  Please tell me if you see this exact thing happen. Can 2 Madames use their passives, decrease turn meters and pass a turn to the other one infinitely? :)

I am not sure I understand you. Madame Serris does not manipulate turn meter at all, hers or someone elses, and she receives the shield from her passive at the start of each of her turns for the whole battle. 

I don't know what do you mean by "pass a turn" in relation to Madame Serris.

Nov 21, 2020, 21:1511/21/20
Nov 21, 2020, 21:20(edited)
06/27/20
304
WatchdogCZ

I am not sure I understand you. Madame Serris does not manipulate turn meter at all, hers or someone elses, and she receives the shield from her passive at the start of each of her turns for the whole battle. 

I don't know what do you mean by "pass a turn" in relation to Madame Serris.

At the start of her turn or at the start of every champion turn?

MS doesn't manipulate turn meter. Enemy Valkyrie manipulates Madame's turn meter through her passive when MS places a buff with her passive. Two passives of different champions interact here.

The part about passing turns is my argument against possibility that Valkyrie passive can make MS not take a turn after MS passive triggered on her turn. It's not the main part.

Nov 21, 2020, 21:2111/21/20
10/26/20
9
Player J

Their are masteries which do affect a heroes turn meter which in turn can affects your champions move order.

Like I said, my kael is the only one with real masteries. Madame has defiance, rejuvination and improved parry from def and pinpoint accuracy, charged focus and swarm smiter from support. spirit host has 2 tiers of offense, and max hp and heal from support.

Kael has war master build on offense and then from support has:

 pinpoint accuracy, exalted in death, swarm smiter, arcane celerity, lore of steel, evil eye, sniper and master hexer. As before, none of which could affect turn meter. (running life steal + offense set so LoS won't affect speed).


I don't doubt there are masteries that affect turn meter, just I'm not using any that affect turn meter before the champions have gone.

Nov 21, 2020, 21:2111/21/20
04/13/20
313
SunnyRay

At the start of her turn or at the start of every champion turn?

MS doesn't manipulate turn meter. Enemy Valkyrie manipulates Madame's turn meter through her passive when MS places a buff with her passive. Two passives of different champions interact here.

The part about passing turns is my argument against possibility that Valkyrie passive can make MS not take a turn after MS passive triggered on her turn. It's not the main part.

Her turn. Not anyone else's. Her only. And only hers, not of any other Madame in your team. Not even if you have four of them. Each gets her own turn and her own little shield, completely unaffected by any other Madame in your team.

Your post didn't mention Valkyrie, only 2 Madames.

Nov 21, 2020, 21:2411/21/20
10/26/20
9
SunnyRay

I don't have a proof for this exact case, but extrapolating my other game experience it must be able to be resisted.

I don't own Madame, I read her passive as "at the start of each turn" and thought it happens at the start or other champion turns too, so turn meter decrease can happen at the start of Spirithost turn. 

I don't belive that "even though passive is applied at the start of her turn it could mean she doesn't get one". It goes against my understanding of the game.  Please tell me if you see this exact thing happen. Can 2 Madames use their passives, decrease turn meters and pass a turn to the other one infinitely? :)

Madame's passive applies at the start of her turn. By "doesn't get one" I meant she would die between her passive shield applying and her getting a go, for example:

her passive shield applies

Valkyrie on other team reduces her turn meter by 10% so madame has between 90% and 100% turn meter.

A champion on the enemy team then goes before madame and kills her therefore her passive shield applies but she doesn't get a go.

Nov 21, 2020, 21:2911/21/20
10/26/20
9
SunnyRay

At the start of her turn or at the start of every champion turn?

MS doesn't manipulate turn meter. Enemy Valkyrie manipulates Madame's turn meter through her passive when MS places a buff with her passive. Two passives of different champions interact here.

The part about passing turns is my argument against possibility that Valkyrie passive can make MS not take a turn after MS passive triggered on her turn. It's not the main part.

"MS doesn't manipulate turn meter. Enemy Valkyrie manipulates Madame's turn meter through her passive when MS places a buff with her passive. Two passives of different champions interact here. "


This is the current theory, I will keep an eye out for a valkyrie, hopefully I'll find one I can use for testing!

Nov 21, 2020, 21:4611/21/20
Nov 21, 2020, 21:56(edited)
06/27/20
304
WatchdogCZ

Her turn. Not anyone else's. Her only. And only hers, not of any other Madame in your team. Not even if you have four of them. Each gets her own turn and her own little shield, completely unaffected by any other Madame in your team.

Your post didn't mention Valkyrie, only 2 Madames.

It was continuation of discussion involving Valkyrie.

It it's her turn, not each turn, then I don't believe her shield is what causes the situation from the opening post. 

To make sure. If 4 enemies take their turns and hit Madame Serris destroying her shield, she doesn't take it back at the start of those enemy turns. Correct?

Nov 21, 2020, 21:5411/21/20
Nov 21, 2020, 22:01(edited)
06/27/20
304
leotho

Madame's passive applies at the start of her turn. By "doesn't get one" I meant she would die between her passive shield applying and her getting a go, for example:

her passive shield applies

Valkyrie on other team reduces her turn meter by 10% so madame has between 90% and 100% turn meter.

A champion on the enemy team then goes before madame and kills her therefore her passive shield applies but she doesn't get a go.

And this is what is hard to believe. You say that MS starts her turn with a passive, but doesn't actually take a turn immediately. If what is possible, then the following scenario should be possible too.

Enemy team: Valkyrie at 100 speed.

Our team: Madame 1, Madame 2. Both at 200 speed.

Valk turn meter 50, MS1 100, MS2 100.

MS1 applies passive: Valk turn meter 50, MS1 90, MS2 100.

MS2 applies passive: Valk turn meter 50, MS1 90, MS2 90.
Time passes: Valk turn meter 55, MS1 100, MS2 100.  

MS1 applies passive: Valk turn meter 55, MS1 90, MS2 100.

And so on. MSs never take a turn. It's like Achilles and the tortoise.
Time ticks in game code work slightly differently, but you can get the idea.

Nov 21, 2020, 22:1011/21/20
10/26/20
9
SunnyRay

And this is what is hard to believe. You say that MS starts her turn with a passive, but doesn't actually take a turn immediately. If what is possible, then the following scenario should be possible too.

Enemy team: Valkyrie at 100 speed.

Our team: Madame 1, Madame 2. Both at 200 speed.

Valk turn meter 50, MS1 100, MS2 100.

MS1 applies passive: Valk turn meter 50, MS1 90, MS2 100.

MS2 applies passive: Valk turn meter 50, MS1 90, MS2 90.
Time passes: Valk turn meter 55, MS1 100, MS2 100.  

MS1 applies passive: Valk turn meter 55, MS1 90, MS2 100.

And so on. MSs never take a turn. It's like Achilles and the tortoise.
Time ticks in game code work slightly differently, but you can get the idea.

I see what you mean, I also find that hard to believe. I doubt we'd ever get a time to actually test this out though sadly.


So I just ran into another valkyrie and something strange happened. I recorded the video (can you share them on here?) and watched it back in slow-mo. As expected, Valkyrie's "Jealousy" passive procced when spirit host used her attack buff, it also applied when madame used her passive shield. The strange part is that my madame still attacked before my kael.