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Lots of new come to raid but not enough energy per bottle ?

Lots of new come to raid but not enough energy per bottle ?

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Feb 27, 2023, 17:4002/27/23
12/19/19
5960
Balltazer

First of all, we're not asking for more free energy, we are asking for more storage for the enrgy that is already free. We're not asking them to adjust the rate at which it accumulates, only the amount we can accumulate. 

Secondly, I think you guys have a very myopic view of business strategy. 

"...no company is ever going to remove the need for you to spend money on their product."

From fortune cookies and Costco samples to free shipping, and in case of some gacha games, free pulls, companies absolutely "give stuff away". Even Raid gives away stuff just for logging in. Where is this notion that nickel-and-diming customers is "just business" coming from? 

Raid is like a casino because Plarium is owned by Aristocrat Leisure - a gambling machine manufacturer. Speaking of casinos, they give away free drinks when you gamble. You know why businesses give stuff away? Competition. Businesses who have competition need to either distinguish themselves from the rest or at the very least to keep up with the competition. 

So when Plarium won't budge on something as trivial as energy STORAGE, they are saying "screw you, you're not going anywhere". And frankly, I'm getting really close to being done with it. I could have bought over a  dozen PS5s with the money I spent on this game, so if you guys think I'll be guilt-tripped into feeling like I'm some moocher asking for more free stuff, you have another thing coming. 

My friend... the myopic view is yours.  You state yourself that Plarium gives plenty of freebies.... but continue to ask for more??? lol. 

You look at in a vacuum from your perspective, but you are not representative of a large segment.  Neither am I.... while changes you suggest will affect u positively (even possibly increase revenue from you) the large audience segments (playerbase) will all show no change (the f2p no matter what) or a reduction in spend from 2 larger cohorts than yours 1. casual/low spenders 2. whales.

You are absolutely correct in that they are running it like a casino, as we should expect.  Why do you suggest things that clearly have no benefit to them?  


Feb 27, 2023, 17:4302/27/23
02/11/21
932
Kankle69

 Dude, chill out. There is no reason to get hostile. No one "called" you anything. I was under the impression
that we were having a constructive conversation with conflicting viewpoints. Undoubtably that isn't what's happening, so I'm done with this conversation. 

Just an FYI though... if you are one of those people who wants to get angry / hostile when someone doesn't agree with you then these forums, and the internet for that matter, probably isn't the place for you.  

Not sure where you even get hostility. You made several points that I disagreed with, and even took my words out of context, and still I haven't called you any names or anything. If any of my words hurt your feelings, do point them out, and I will gladly rephrase them, but no need to act all offended like I went off on you or something. Maybe you are the sensitive one. 


Feb 27, 2023, 18:0702/27/23
02/11/21
932
Trips

My friend... the myopic view is yours.  You state yourself that Plarium gives plenty of freebies.... but continue to ask for more??? lol. 

You look at in a vacuum from your perspective, but you are not representative of a large segment.  Neither am I.... while changes you suggest will affect u positively (even possibly increase revenue from you) the large audience segments (playerbase) will all show no change (the f2p no matter what) or a reduction in spend from 2 larger cohorts than yours 1. casual/low spenders 2. whales.

You are absolutely correct in that they are running it like a casino, as we should expect.  Why do you suggest things that clearly have no benefit to them?  


When I mention a myopic view, I mean the idea that a business is a zero-sum game, that in order for us to have fun, Plarium has to give something up. The fact that Plarium does offer free stuff is not contradicting that point, it's reinforcing it. 

I wasn't asking for freebies. In fact, they could have offered us to increase energy storage capacity for gems and silver, like they do for champion roster and vaults. Even if they charged actual money to increase it, I'd have been fine with it (but of course, there would be an uproar that it isn't f2p friendly). 

And I would have no problem if they actually ran it like a casino because when I'm a paying customer in a casino, I don't have to worry about them nickel and diming me on the small stuff. 

Feb 27, 2023, 18:3902/27/23
12/19/19
5960
Balltazer

When I mention a myopic view, I mean the idea that a business is a zero-sum game, that in order for us to have fun, Plarium has to give something up. The fact that Plarium does offer free stuff is not contradicting that point, it's reinforcing it. 

I wasn't asking for freebies. In fact, they could have offered us to increase energy storage capacity for gems and silver, like they do for champion roster and vaults. Even if they charged actual money to increase it, I'd have been fine with it (but of course, there would be an uproar that it isn't f2p friendly). 

And I would have no problem if they actually ran it like a casino because when I'm a paying customer in a casino, I don't have to worry about them nickel and diming me on the small stuff. 

You only get nickle and dimed if you allow it.... not even sure how they do anything... lol

But by far the most laughable arguement I've seen is:

"The game takes too much time, need more QOL..... so solution is WE NEED MORE ENERGY!!! and our monthly sacred and chicken...."


LMAO


But no its never about more free stuff... lol

Feb 27, 2023, 19:2402/27/23
02/11/21
932
Trips

You only get nickle and dimed if you allow it.... not even sure how they do anything... lol

But by far the most laughable arguement I've seen is:

"The game takes too much time, need more QOL..... so solution is WE NEED MORE ENERGY!!! and our monthly sacred and chicken...."


LMAO


But no its never about more free stuff... lol

Sure, I stopped paying them nickles and dimes....by playing less. The game doesn't go from f2p to p2w, it goes from free-to-play to pay-to-play-some-more. 

Honestly, they can have their Sacred and chicken.....a 6% chance at a random legendary? Yeah, not even sure how that's the pinnacle of our rewards past early game, let alone worth $20 they're charging for it. 

As for QOL and more energy, it's pretty simple: we play the game to have fun....not saying you do, but I definitely want it to be more entertaining. But as it stands, 95% of the game is just clicking play and waiting for the runs to finish, so you can discards 95% of the gear and keep 5% to try rolling it (of which, surprise suprise, 95% will be discarded). Then, when you're out of energy, you're just waiting for more, so you can press 'play' again and wait for the game to play itself again. 

So where does the fun come in? Only stuff I play manually is Arena and Hydra, and that's been made boring by constant RNG and slow as a rock Stoneskin builds. 

So I get it, it's supposed to be a grindfest.....but can we make the grind part occupy less of our time? They won't, and it has nothing to do with them being a business - it's because if we're not busy grinding, there isn't much else to do in the game. 3 Hydra keys a week, an arena token an hour, it will be a desert. With all the "new content", Plarium hasn't come up with entertainment value, they just came up with more things to grind and occupy your time "playing". 

Which is where energy comes in. If we had more energy, we could get our grinding out of the way faster. Not faster in terms of gameplay, but we'd get the required gear/potions/oils/souls faster by getting the grinding out of the way. But if we get all the gear we need, we're back to not having anything to play. The game keeps you busy.....not entertained. 

dthorne04Moderator
Feb 27, 2023, 21:5002/27/23
12/30/20
5338
Balltazer

Not sure where you even get hostility. You made several points that I disagreed with, and even took my words out of context, and still I haven't called you any names or anything. If any of my words hurt your feelings, do point them out, and I will gladly rephrase them, but no need to act all offended like I went off on you or something. Maybe you are the sensitive one. 


There's definitely some hostility coming off here. When you say people are calling you something, that's pretty much just dragging them into an argument or forcing them to defend something they didn't say. 

I get that it seems to be a contentious topic for yourself and others, but I think taking that approach just drowns out and ruins good discussion - of which I can pull tidbits and bring to discussions later on. When we get into the name calling and accusations it just devolves into a useless situation for all involved. 

Feb 27, 2023, 22:0902/27/23
02/11/21
932
dthorne04

There's definitely some hostility coming off here. When you say people are calling you something, that's pretty much just dragging them into an argument or forcing them to defend something they didn't say. 

I get that it seems to be a contentious topic for yourself and others, but I think taking that approach just drowns out and ruins good discussion - of which I can pull tidbits and bring to discussions later on. When we get into the name calling and accusations it just devolves into a useless situation for all involved. 

That's the thing, I didn't call anybody names. 

And I'm not saying anybody calls me anything, but every time we bring up some expectations, it seems to be misconstrued as asking for more free stuff. That sounds a lot like a cop-out that is misguided at best and dishonest at worst, especially from a guy who just recently ranted about f2p players expecting improvements from Plarium. I just felt compelled to let him know that nobody "threw me a bone", so I feel absolutely justified in letting Plarium know when something tastes subpar, and I believe I did it in a lot more mellow verbiage than he used in his post.

P.S. Every improvement can be spun into "asking for more free stuff". And that's why I say let us increase energy storage for silver and gems. 

harleQuinnModerator
Feb 27, 2023, 22:2702/27/23
Feb 27, 2023, 22:28(edited)
02/24/19
7211
Balltazer

That's the thing, I didn't call anybody names. 

And I'm not saying anybody calls me anything, but every time we bring up some expectations, it seems to be misconstrued as asking for more free stuff. That sounds a lot like a cop-out that is misguided at best and dishonest at worst, especially from a guy who just recently ranted about f2p players expecting improvements from Plarium. I just felt compelled to let him know that nobody "threw me a bone", so I feel absolutely justified in letting Plarium know when something tastes subpar, and I believe I did it in a lot more mellow verbiage than he used in his post.

P.S. Every improvement can be spun into "asking for more free stuff". And that's why I say let us increase energy storage for silver and gems. 

I literally just popped in to the forums for the day and started reading. My first thought was "Why is BT being so unneccesarily hostile to the other folks here?"

It's okay if someone disagrees with you, you don't have to say they are calling you a moocher or whatever, or get pissed they are not agreeing with your points. 

Honestly, I agree with your clanmate Trips' points that you're basically just asking for more free stuff across your posts. From the outside looking in, over all of your suggestions the past couple weeks, you wish to spend less than you have been spending, but also get to play basically the same way and for the same amount of time as when you were spending.

As a long time very very very low spender (after the Bolster Passes I can no longer by called F2P), I can tell you that your gameplay loop is very different when you're not spending. Whatever gameplay loop people want to do is fine with me, F2P, monthly gems, shard packs monthly... it's their money and time, people should use it how they want to. But if you want to be F2P, you have to be okay with the gameplay loop that is F2P though, realign your expecations.

As far as these posts over a few threads now, intelligent people can disagree, and someone telling you they see something you are asking for as asking for free stuff.. well, means that is how you're coming off. If you want to see changes, you gotta look at what changes aren't just "more free" and are actually QoL changes... starting with Time Saving, go from there.

harleQuinnModerator
Feb 27, 2023, 22:3602/27/23
02/24/19
7211
Trips

My friend... the myopic view is yours.  You state yourself that Plarium gives plenty of freebies.... but continue to ask for more??? lol. 

You look at in a vacuum from your perspective, but you are not representative of a large segment.  Neither am I.... while changes you suggest will affect u positively (even possibly increase revenue from you) the large audience segments (playerbase) will all show no change (the f2p no matter what) or a reduction in spend from 2 larger cohorts than yours 1. casual/low spenders 2. whales.

You are absolutely correct in that they are running it like a casino, as we should expect.  Why do you suggest things that clearly have no benefit to them?  


The biggest, and most serious feedback I am seeing from all of this is "How will I have time to do it? My game is already running every waking minute I can!"

More energy just means inflation on that energy, less rewards for more runs basically, and just increases the time in game... which to me seems to do the opposite of what would actually answer the big complaint, having time to actually do Live Arena matches.

Looks like the dungeons won't cost additional energy than the 25s from what I've seen. The gameplay loop will now be "Climb the Normal Dungeons 1-25 until you can Git Gud enough to climb the Hard Dungeons 1-10 to search for Mythic loot." You're still farming gear, you're still using the same energy you always were... you're gonna run FK 200 times on Normal 20/25 then go run it an ADDITIONAL 200 times on Hard 10.

Feb 27, 2023, 22:5202/27/23
02/11/21
932
harleQuinn

I literally just popped in to the forums for the day and started reading. My first thought was "Why is BT being so unneccesarily hostile to the other folks here?"

It's okay if someone disagrees with you, you don't have to say they are calling you a moocher or whatever, or get pissed they are not agreeing with your points. 

Honestly, I agree with your clanmate Trips' points that you're basically just asking for more free stuff across your posts. From the outside looking in, over all of your suggestions the past couple weeks, you wish to spend less than you have been spending, but also get to play basically the same way and for the same amount of time as when you were spending.

As a long time very very very low spender (after the Bolster Passes I can no longer by called F2P), I can tell you that your gameplay loop is very different when you're not spending. Whatever gameplay loop people want to do is fine with me, F2P, monthly gems, shard packs monthly... it's their money and time, people should use it how they want to. But if you want to be F2P, you have to be okay with the gameplay loop that is F2P though, realign your expecations.

As far as these posts over a few threads now, intelligent people can disagree, and someone telling you they see something you are asking for as asking for free stuff.. well, means that is how you're coming off. If you want to see changes, you gotta look at what changes aren't just "more free" and are actually QoL changes... starting with Time Saving, go from there.

HQ, the reason I disagree with "asking for free stuff" is because I am ok with paying in-game resources or even money for it. I don't think asking for an option to buy something is asking for free stuff. 

If I asked for increased storage for champs, you'd say I'm asking for free stuff. But we're all perfectly justified in buying it for gems and silver without feeling like freeloaders, aren't we? 

So when I ask for an option to buy extra energy cap with gems and silver, how is that asking for free stuff? Asking for faster energy regeneration rate would be asking for more free energy, asking for a bigger tank isn't, especially when we're willing to pay for it. 

Like I told Trips, if they help us save time, the game will be a desert because most of the "playtime" is spent grinding away at the same repetitive content. Then, people will really start asking for more energy...not just higher energy cap, but actually more free energy. 



harleQuinnModerator
Feb 27, 2023, 23:0102/27/23
02/24/19
7211
Balltazer

HQ, the reason I disagree with "asking for free stuff" is because I am ok with paying in-game resources or even money for it. I don't think asking for an option to buy something is asking for free stuff. 

If I asked for increased storage for champs, you'd say I'm asking for free stuff. But we're all perfectly justified in buying it for gems and silver without feeling like freeloaders, aren't we? 

So when I ask for an option to buy extra energy cap with gems and silver, how is that asking for free stuff? Asking for faster energy regeneration rate would be asking for more free energy, asking for a bigger tank isn't, especially when we're willing to pay for it. 

Like I told Trips, if they help us save time, the game will be a desert because most of the "playtime" is spent grinding away at the same repetitive content. Then, people will really start asking for more energy...not just higher energy cap, but actually more free energy. 



Heya. So lets start at this one issue you bring up here.

A bigger energy cap lets people save up more energy, which overall means a loss in resources for Plarium. Very few people are using energy efficiently like Krama does, always staying below the cap. A feature like you are asking for is ultimately economy breakingly in the player's favor, as you spend once to increase your cap, and forever get to reap the benefits of having more energy than your fellows. It also FURTHER pushes the game into P2W territory, as buying the additional energy cap is basically a requirement for efficient play.

You know how much more terrible it would be for F2P players if they had to stay on literally forever to stay below the cap, while BT gets to pay 100 bucks once and only have to log in once per day to knock out 200 spider runs? We both ran 200 spiders.... but I had to kill myself over it, while you got to do it casually. Now extrapolate this over 365 days, where I can't play like that every day.... and you're so much farther ahead of me on gear farming, soul farming, oil farming, etc.... It's already very difficult to keep up, but really I see this as churning out more F2P players than ever before.

All because you can pay once to get more free stuff than the rest of us get, forever.

harleQuinnModerator
Feb 27, 2023, 23:0502/27/23
02/24/19
7211

As far as being able to get more storage space and such, I'm all about it. Last time we had a big thread about it, I didn't tell anyone they were asking for something for free until they DID.

See, that was two different camps of people when FG was annouced. 1) More max champ storage, it's okay if we continue to spend silver/gems like we always have to expand it, so we can more easily manage our FG and vault 2) More storage, it shouldn't cost a gem or silver piece, cause YOU are changing the game

Both are asking for features. One is asking for free stuff, the other is asking for something in a way we might actually see it implemented.

I passed this feedback on, as did others in the team, and Plarium added that to their metrics, and boom, a whole additional vault to store champs. :)

Feb 27, 2023, 23:2902/27/23
10/15/20
2046

I think Plarium should give some more free stuff... more auto battles. I would even say unlimted auto battles. Players using 3rd party programms allready have this effectivly, and we have official statements from Plarium here in the forum, that these 3rd party programms are allowed. But it shouldn't be necessary to install 3rd party programms to enjoy the game.

I can't see how they create money from the fact that players have to sit in front of the game and klick manually on the start dungeon button every 2 minutes.

harleQuinnModerator
Feb 27, 2023, 23:4202/27/23
02/24/19
7211
Skadi

I think Plarium should give some more free stuff... more auto battles. I would even say unlimted auto battles. Players using 3rd party programms allready have this effectivly, and we have official statements from Plarium here in the forum, that these 3rd party programms are allowed. But it shouldn't be necessary to install 3rd party programms to enjoy the game.

I can't see how they create money from the fact that players have to sit in front of the game and klick manually on the start dungeon button every 2 minutes.

Just a quick side note that there are autoclickers for your phone too, that work just like Bluestacks. Some people have recommended a couple, but I don't remember. Just search your Google Play or Apple Store. :)

Feb 27, 2023, 23:4202/27/23
Feb 27, 2023, 23:43(edited)
02/11/21
932
harleQuinn

Heya. So lets start at this one issue you bring up here.

A bigger energy cap lets people save up more energy, which overall means a loss in resources for Plarium. Very few people are using energy efficiently like Krama does, always staying below the cap. A feature like you are asking for is ultimately economy breakingly in the player's favor, as you spend once to increase your cap, and forever get to reap the benefits of having more energy than your fellows. It also FURTHER pushes the game into P2W territory, as buying the additional energy cap is basically a requirement for efficient play.

You know how much more terrible it would be for F2P players if they had to stay on literally forever to stay below the cap, while BT gets to pay 100 bucks once and only have to log in once per day to knock out 200 spider runs? We both ran 200 spiders.... but I had to kill myself over it, while you got to do it casually. Now extrapolate this over 365 days, where I can't play like that every day.... and you're so much farther ahead of me on gear farming, soul farming, oil farming, etc.... It's already very difficult to keep up, but really I see this as churning out more F2P players than ever before.

All because you can pay once to get more free stuff than the rest of us get, forever.

I am almost always below cap because I feel like I'm wasting energy. But the cap is 130, what is that, 6.5 hours? Basically, if you get 8 hours of sleep, you are wasting energy. I wake up and make 2 dungeon runs while I'm brushing my teeth, then put on CB while I'm taking a shower. Sometimes I'll have a brainfart and run DTH before going to sleep only to find 250 energy sitting there from one of the stages. Now, I gotta wait for 13 runs to finish before I can turn off my phone and go to sleep. 

6.5 hours before you're wasting energy, come on guys. 

And my point about willing to pay money for it is just to illustrate the point that I'm not expecting free stuff. But make it gems and silver, and it's just like everything else in the game, we will all eventually max it out. 


Feb 27, 2023, 23:5102/27/23
02/11/21
932
harleQuinn

Just a quick side note that there are autoclickers for your phone too, that work just like Bluestacks. Some people have recommended a couple, but I don't remember. Just search your Google Play or Apple Store. :)

I fell asleep several times while my multibattles were running, my phone was on fire, I thought it was gonna burn. I literally took it out of the case, turned it off, and put it on a frozen gel pack to let it cool down. 

We can't have dungeons running in the background, so when I have to use my phone for work or real life, I'm wasting energy. Ironically, I stopped spending on pulls because I have more champs than I can gear out. I bought my way to a lot of good champs, but I can't buy my way into good gear, not with those RNG packs they have at the market. 

I need gear, and grinding gear on mobile is a pain because of that. Ironically, I could have saved a lot of money by simply buying a laptop and running Raid on Plarium Play lol If I had to do it again, that would have been the move. 

dthorne04Moderator
Feb 27, 2023, 23:5202/27/23
Feb 27, 2023, 23:53(edited)
12/30/20
5338
Balltazer

I am almost always below cap because I feel like I'm wasting energy. But the cap is 130, what is that, 6.5 hours? Basically, if you get 8 hours of sleep, you are wasting energy. I wake up and make 2 dungeon runs while I'm brushing my teeth, then put on CB while I'm taking a shower. Sometimes I'll have a brainfart and run DTH before going to sleep only to find 250 energy sitting there from one of the stages. Now, I gotta wait for 13 runs to finish before I can turn off my phone and go to sleep. 

6.5 hours before you're wasting energy, come on guys. 

And my point about willing to pay money for it is just to illustrate the point that I'm not expecting free stuff. But make it gems and silver, and it's just like everything else in the game, we will all eventually max it out. 


this ignores over the whole point about needing to buy the new energy cap to maximize your playing experience versus the field, and further burying F2P and players who come in later.

edit: alright, I'm seeing this is mostly boiling down to a mobile versus desktop experience/situation at this point and now it makes more sense

harleQuinnModerator
Feb 27, 2023, 23:5602/27/23
02/24/19
7211
Balltazer

I fell asleep several times while my multibattles were running, my phone was on fire, I thought it was gonna burn. I literally took it out of the case, turned it off, and put it on a frozen gel pack to let it cool down. 

We can't have dungeons running in the background, so when I have to use my phone for work or real life, I'm wasting energy. Ironically, I stopped spending on pulls because I have more champs than I can gear out. I bought my way to a lot of good champs, but I can't buy my way into good gear, not with those RNG packs they have at the market. 

I need gear, and grinding gear on mobile is a pain because of that. Ironically, I could have saved a lot of money by simply buying a laptop and running Raid on Plarium Play lol If I had to do it again, that would have been the move. 

Gear grinding is a whole thing, yes. And buying your way into gear with gear packs is for uber whales only.

I might or might not have saved an old phone at the recommendation of another player a couple years ago and it does random overnight autos for me.

Here's the good news. The hard dungeons resets ALL of us, BT. Everyone who is behind on gear is gonna have the opportunity to start fresh lookin for mythic stuff. Honestly, you're upset today, but Hard Dungeons and Mythic gear and Gear Ascension is a huge catchup mechanic for anyone behind right now. This should be all good news, but you're pissed, which I don't get at all. The whales will always be way ahead of you in the original marathon cause you started when they were on mile 25, but there's a brand new race starting and you get to start with everyone else this time. 

Feb 28, 2023, 00:0002/28/23
Feb 28, 2023, 00:03(edited)
12/19/19
5960

Playing on mobile only would make me quit immediately.


Edit to clarify: I do tag and Hydra on phone, as I prefer to "play" the game on mobile.  The other 90% is pc doing the grind for me.


Feb 28, 2023, 00:4702/28/23
02/11/21
932
harleQuinn

Gear grinding is a whole thing, yes. And buying your way into gear with gear packs is for uber whales only.

I might or might not have saved an old phone at the recommendation of another player a couple years ago and it does random overnight autos for me.

Here's the good news. The hard dungeons resets ALL of us, BT. Everyone who is behind on gear is gonna have the opportunity to start fresh lookin for mythic stuff. Honestly, you're upset today, but Hard Dungeons and Mythic gear and Gear Ascension is a huge catchup mechanic for anyone behind right now. This should be all good news, but you're pissed, which I don't get at all. The whales will always be way ahead of you in the original marathon cause you started when they were on mile 25, but there's a brand new race starting and you get to start with everyone else this time. 

I think I'm more tired than pissed. It's hard to convey over messages, but this isn't so much intensity coming through as bottled up frustration over a long time. 

Mythical gear is cool, but it's just more stuff to grind, and feels like another rat race. I'm pretty sure I already have the champs for hard dungeons, I'll spend a CvC or two building those who were vaulted, gear them out and pillage those dungeons to the level my gear allows. Then, it's more rinse/repeat, press play and hope for good RNG....just like Iron Twins, just like Sand Devil. 

I'm not expecting to compete against whales, I just don't get excited by the grind anymore. When I was trying new teams and working towards something, I was ok. Lydia, Mithrala....then a slow descension into autopilot.