ChosenBrad1322 said:

Hello!  Good question, War Master will be more optimal for champions with skills that only hit enemies once.  Giant Slayer will be more optimal for champions that hit enemies multiple times each turn.  At 2 it's basically even, 1 means warmaster is better, at 3+ giant slayer is better.  Hope this helps gl hf!

Thanks, but does 1 AoE count as 1 attack, or multiple attacks (assuming there are multiple targets)?

Also, at 2, isn't Giant Slayer superior?  When Giant Slayer procs, it hits for 3% of a boss's max HP.  Warmaster hits for 4%.  So, with a 2-hitter, the odds of getting the proc are even on each attack.  However, with Warmaster, it would only be a 3% max HP attack with a proc (since it can only proc once per skill), whereas with Giant Slayer, it could proc for either 3% or 6%.  This means an average of 4.5% max HP on average.  I know 4.5 isn't a whole lot of difference, but on a boss with huge HP, that 0.5% could be huge.

I guess another factor to consider there as well though is the champion's A2 and A3 skills.  If both of them only hit once, then it could end up making Warmaster better for bosses.  However, depending on if an AoE attack only counts as one "attack" with this skill, or multiple depending on the targets, it could make Giant Slayer FAR more feasible for arena. 

What ChosenBrad says is basically correct but most of the time, Warmaster is better on a 2-hit A1 for two reasons:

1. While Warmaster and Giantslayer hit for the same amount of damage on Clan Boss, Warmaster deals more damage in dungeons and arena.

2. On the tier below Warmaster/Giantslayer, you usually want to go for "Methodical", which only opens the path for Warmaster on the next tier. If you want to go for Giantslayer, you have to pick the inferior "Kill Streak", "Blood Shield" or "Stoked to Fury". This might not be important if you intend to pick two Offense masteries on this tier, however.

On the other hand, you have a reason to pick Giantslayer over Warmaster on a 2-hit A1 if your champion is alternating between said A1 and a 3- or 4-hit A2/3. But in this case, you might still miss out on Methodical.

The damage is capped on CB, so WM and GS do identical damage.

The chance rate of Warmaster is 60%, while Giant Slayer is 30%. Key things to remember here is that WM can only roll once and proc once, so an ability with one attack will have the same chance as proccing WM as an ability with four attacks. GS on the other hand rolls for each individual attack and of any ability, however the ability has a much lower chance to do so. GS needs at least 2 attacks to come close to WM in CB effectiveness (in chance rates, 30% + 30% doesn't equal 60%, it's more like 55%, some weird thing in maths causes this) so WM is almost always better than GS on champs with up to 2 attacks.

Scenarios where GS may be better is where you have an A1 that has two attacks, an A2 that has two attacks, and an A3 that has 4 attacks. On the other hand, if you had an A1 with one attack, an A2 with one attack, and an A3 with four attacks, it's virtually always better to go with WM as your A3 won't make up for all the missed procs for the other two abilities. Generally speaking, if your A1 has one or two attacks, you'll want WM, and if your A2 has three or four attacks, you'll want GS. This will vary slightly according to what the other abilities are, but that's a general rule of thumb to go by.

Also keep in mind that decreasing the targets defense stat through debuffs (including weaken) increases the amount of damage that WM and GS procs will do, including on CB.

Hello

Generally, an AoE attack is a single attack unless stated otherwise(attacks all targets X times),  WM or GS can individually proc per target.

I would suggest you when looking at a champ to know how many hits over 7 turns, 7 because it's on avg one of the largest cd's you see on a move, so this allows it to be compared to other champions easily(my experience) 

Rowan, a1 does 1 hit, a2 does 3 hits, a3 does 4 attacks.  over a 7 turn period(auto) it would be 4 + 3 + 1 +1 +1 +4 + 3 =  17 hits over 7 turns. I would use WM with Rowan because her most common hit is a 1 hitter and that the other moves will still benefit from WM.

Could heart,  a1 does 4, a2 does 1, a3 does 1.  over a 7 turn period(auto) it would be 1 + 1 +4 + 4 +4 +1+ 1 = 16 hits over 7 turns, (though CH could hit up to 28 times only using her a1.) I would use GS with cold heart because I would generally only use her a1 with means 28 hits possible for GS.

So a 1-2 hitter on a basic move means for me a WM and 3 hits and over I do GS. I do consider the above in case I'm able to benefit more form gs when the first move is only a 1 hit.

Does that help?

regards

KiwiMcSheep said:

Hello

Generally, an AoE attack is a single attack unless stated otherwise(attacks all targets X times),  WM or GS can individually proc per target.

I would suggest you when looking at a champ to know how many hits over 7 turns, 7 because it's on avg one of the largest cd's you see on a move, so this allows it to be compared to other champions easily(my experience) 

Rowan, a1 does 1 hit, a2 does 3 hits, a3 does 4 attacks.  over a 7 turn period(auto) it would be 4 + 3 + 1 +1 +1 +4 + 3 =  17 hits over 7 turns. I would use WM with Rowan because her most common hit is a 1 hitter and that the other moves will still benefit from WM.

Could heart,  a1 does 4, a2 does 1, a3 does 1.  over a 7 turn period(auto) it would be 1 + 1 +4 + 4 +4 +1+ 1 = 16 hits over 7 turns, (though CH could hit up to 28 times only using her a1.) I would use GS with cold heart because I would generally only use her a1 with means 28 hits possible for GS.

So a 1-2 hitter on a basic move means for me a WM and 3 hits and over I do GS. I do consider the above in case I'm able to benefit more form gs when the first move is only a 1 hit.

Does that help?

regards

Let's do the math on it!

TL;DR:

GS is better if the champ does at least 2.7 hits per skill. This is not considering any other effects, only the pure damage from GS and WM.

Slightly longer version:

Warmaster:

60% chance for 4% of target MAX HP. Once per Skill.

So on average WM will deal 2.4% of target MAX HP.

Giantslayer:

30% chance for 3% of target MAX HP. Once per Hit.

So on average GS will deal 0.9% of target MAX HP.

So you just need to calculate 2.4/0.9 = 2.66666...

Which means that GS will be better than WM, if your champion does more than 2.6 hits per attack on average.

Let's look at one example from above: Rowan.

A1: 1 Hit

A2: 3 Hits, 4 turns CD

A3: 4 Hits, 4 turns CD

So the order will be:

A3, A2, A1, A1, A3, A2, A1, A1 and so on.

So in 4 turns, she will do 4+3+1+1 = 9 hits. Which means on average Rowan does 2.25 hits per attack and thus WM is better.

WM will be better on most Champions. Even on Coldheart, you'd really need to do the math, since you can't use A2 and A3 anymore, if she has GS. Which means no poison and also no Heartseeker, which scales with target MAX HP as well.

MrRoboto said:

Let's do the math on it!

Slightly longer version:

Warmaster:

60% chance for 4% of target MAX HP. Once per Skill.

So on average WM will deal 2.4% of target MAX HP.

Giantslayer:

30% chance for 3% of target MAX HP. Once per Hit.

So on average GS will deal 0.9% of target MAX HP.

So you just need to calculate 2.4/0.9 = 2.66666...

Which means that GS will be better than WM, if your champion does more than 2.6 hits per attack on average.

Let's look at one example from above: Rowan.

A1: 1 Hit

A2: 3 Hits, 4 turns CD

A3: 4 Hits, 4 turns CD

So the order will be:

A3, A2, A1, A1, A3, A2, A1, A1 and so on.

So in 4 turns, she will do 4+3+1+1 = 9 hits. Which means on average Rowan does 2.25 hits per attack and thus WM is better.

WM will be better on most Champions. Even on Coldheart, you'd really need to do the math, since you can't use A2 and A3 anymore, if she has GS. Which means no poison and also no Heartseeker, which scales with target MAX HP as well.

Your math is not correct because you are leaving out important information.

You are not taking into consideration outside factors.

For Example:

The Clan Boss has a Max Cap. on the amount of damage you can do to him.

The Max Cap. Stems from a passive skill which the game gave to the CB so players couldn’t reach ungodly Damage amounts.

The Max Cap. Passive Skill applies to Poisons, HP Burns, & Max Enemy HP Attacks.

The result is WM & GS will hit for identical damage.

The only difference is with the Chance Percentage + Per Skill restrictions.

A player by the name of “GoodGuyGlen” explained this to people of this thread on June 9th.

“GoodGuyGlen” post is 4 posts above yours.

You could of understood this had you read what he had to say instead of thinking players on this forum are not capable of doing math.

You have basically made a fool of yourself for no reason at all.

In addition, your statement about ColdHeart can be considered wrong.

Giant Slayer is better on ColdHeart vs. Clan Boss

Coldhearts A1 does 4 hits.

Players can manually spam the A1 none stop to make her do 4 hits endlessly.

“KiwiMcsheep” wrote a full hit Break Down showing what ColdHeart hits will be.

“KiwiMcsheep” post is 3 post above yours explaining why she plans to use Giant Slayer with ColdHeart.

You could of understood this had you read what she had to say instead of thinking players on this forum are not capable of using ColdHeart efficiently.

Furthermore, The only skills you want ColdHeart to use vs. CB is A1 & A3.

Coldhearts A2 is useless vs. CB.

ColdHeart A2 has the potential to place a Decrease ACC on the Boss.

ColdHeart A2 only applies poison if you have a Heal Reduction DeBuff on the Clan Boss.

Why would anyone risk filling up 2 CB Debuff Slots with Heal Reduction & Decrease ACC.

You don’t want CB slots filled with such useless Debuffs.

The optimal builds for ColdHeart vs. the Clan Boss don’t prioritize Accuracy.

You want no Accuracy on ColdHeart vs. the Clan Boss.

You don’t want ColdHeart to fill the boss up with stupid Debuff’s.

1 poison isn’t worth the loss of 2 CB Debuff Slots.

Any good player will tell you that.

The wild thing is even with no accuracy she still finds a way to land the Heal Reduction Debuff.

It really blows my mind why this is even happens.

This is why ColdHeart isn’t Tier 1 Clan Boss material.

Player J, thank you for your input.

However, I don't like you to presume I didn't read the other posts or even thought that "players on this forum are not capable of doing math".

I did the calculation because I haven't seen it here. Maybe it is somewhere, but a quick google search has only produced some links to posts here and on reddit, without an exact calculation: How many hits exactly does a champ need to do, before GS becomes better.

Now I haven't said I'm looking specifically at CB only (although I realiize that's apparently what many people exclusively care about), my math was looking at the pure, general, numbers.

That being said, I really did miss that GS and WM deal the same damage on clan boss, even though of course I read every post here - I just missed it. Thank you for pointing it out again, Player J.

About Coldheart: I don't understand how my statement is wrong. I didn't say that WM is better on Coldheart. But if you have certain gear, you don't have weaken/decrease def debuffs and so on, there might even be situations where that's actually the case. Because even if you lose half of the GS/WM damage taking WM, you'll get poison and a very strong A3, which deals a lot more damage than A1. That's why I said you'd need to do the math.

Anyway, I didn't contradict KiwiMcSheep here. I only corrected KiwiMcSheep on the Rowan analysis, which was flawed.

And again: The purpose of my post was to find the sweet spot; To find the amount of hits needed for GS to become better than WM. Now if I understand correctly, it would be 2 hits for CB and 2.7 hits everywhere else?

Actually this helped a lot KiwiMcSheep. Thanks! 

Player J said:

MrRoboto said:

You could of understood this had you read what he had to say instead of thinking players on this forum are not capable of doing math.

You have basically made a fool of yourself for no reason at all

And what reason was there for how you made a fool of YOUR self, by showing you haven't even mastered English?

"Could of"? How would that even work? Why would you even imagine that "of" made sense there?

If you're gonna be a douchebag while correcting someone, you sure hell need to avoid making an absolutely idiotic, childish error while doing so.